Gizmodo
The war between Blu-ray and HD DVD takes center stage, but now we're starting to see rumbles within the vast Blu-ray coalition. How long did you think a truce between longtime rivals Sony and Panasonic could last, anyhow? To be sure, everyone is being perfectly civil to one another, but while Panasonic, Samsung and Denon are blazing the way with "standard" Blu-ray players, Pioneer and Sony still remain hung up on the "initial" Blu-ray spec. After talking to top brass at all of these companies, we have pieced together a sense of where Blu-ray hardware is headed, and why it's taking so long.
The root of the problem is that Blu-ray did not have a finished specification when devices went into production. Instead, there were two or three "profiles," outlined in the chart above. After November 1, any Blu-ray player had to meet 1.1, sometimes called "final standard profile." Panasonic planned a mid-November launch of its 1.1 player, and a production delay caused Samsung to update its player to the spec. Denon always planned to ship its first Blu-ray player in December, so it planned for 1.1 all along. Meanwhile, Sony, Pioneer and others introduced Blu-ray players in the fall that shipped just before the November 1 deadline, thereby ensuring that they did not have to be "final standard." Instead, they met the requirements of the simpler "initial profile.
What the hell is BD Profile 1.1 anyway? All that's required for a player to meet the "final standard profile" (aka 1.1) is internal memory of at least 256MB, secondary video decoding and audio mixing, plus virtual file management, presumably to read and decode content streams from different places on the disc simultaneously. "Standard" doesn't even mean Ethernet. The hallmark of 1.1 is picture-in-picture, and before you groan, rest assured, many in the industry groaned too, at first.
"Picture-in-picture... God, we're talking about that again after 20 years?" said Jeff Talmadge, director of product development at Denon. "I don't think anyone ever used it then. But it could mean some pretty cool stuff."
Cool stuff indeed, like what Warner did with the 300 HD DVD: you could watch the finished movie on the big screen, while watching the actors jump around in front of a green screen in the smaller on-screen box. Surely if 1.1 players had been released, Warner would have put that feature on the Blu-ray of 300. In the end, it did not.
At the moment, there aren't any 1.1 Blu-ray discs at all. Sony's Stan Glasgow argued that the software wasn't here yet, and that picture quality from "initial" spec to "standard" spec doesn't change. "The important thing is what features you get," Glasgow told us. "Performance doesn't improve with 1.1. What are studios going to add?"
Well, studios are finally going to add something. Fox has announced that the sci-fi drama Sunshine will ship January 8. I saw footage of it in a demo, and while I wasn't bowled over, I like the implications. Just like HD DVD, the picture-in-picture capability will come in handy with "box set" movie editions, like Lord of the Rings, where the movie and the "making of" would benefit from juxtaposition.
The bottom line is, today's players need to be 1.1 so that buyers don't get screwed out of good content when movie companies start bringing it out next year. The worst case scenario is that studios start releasing movies that don't even play on older machines. It's a possibility, though one that hardware manufacturers say they won't let happen.
"You know the software is coming," says Reid Sullivan, VP of marketing for Samsung's A/V products group. Samsung's higher-end BD-UP5000 Duo isn't just 1.1 but also a full-featured HD DVD player. "It behooves us to try and make the product as future-proof as possible, even if the content isn't available yet. When it is available, consumers can enjoy all of it." Sullivan told us that the Duo is on track for end of December in-store availability at a price of $999, but that pricing may be "updated" to reflect the market. That is, we might see this sucker for less.
Remember, though: while Samsung did drop its deluxe Blu-ray only, non-1.1 player, it is selling the BD-P1400, a cheaper Blu-ray player that only meets the "initial" specifications. We're not nearly as excited about that, though its announced $549 sticker price will very likely plummet by Christmas as well.
You will remember that we reported that the Duo will only get to the 1.1 profile with a free firmware update scheduled for late January. Ironically, because the Duo has an Ethernet port mandated by its HD DVD half, it will be able to get the update via network, without any fancy download-and-burn requirement.
Speaking of firmware, we had our hopes pegged on the PS3's 2.00 software update for adding 1.1 capability, but just this AM, we were sorely disappointed. Nevertheless, word on the street is that the PS3 still just needs a software update to activate 1.1. The current lineup of Sony Blu-ray players, on the other hand, can never reach it, with or without firmware update.
Denon will offer the third 1.1 player of 2007, also available in December. While it's nice to see that Denon skipped "initial" profile and jumped right into "standard," it's even more encouraging to hear Talmadge say that a universal player is in the works:
"In our heart and soul, we are looking at a true universal player, if that's what the market dictates. And it won't just play all video discs, but it will play SACD and DVD-Audio as well." Hell, a player like that might even be worth Denon's unarguably high-end price.
For those squarely in the Blu-ray camp, the best is, apparently, yet to come. A "full" spec—sometimes called BD Profile 2.0—will increase capability to include BD Live, an online component with trailer downloads, online shopping and other features that may or may not actually be compelling. Blu-ray Disc Association spokesman and Pioneer SVP Andy Parsons says the 2.0 is a misnomer, since the BD Live specifications were codified in January 2006. "A company could have released BD Live players the next day if they had wished." It didn't happen, but partly because of the chicken-and-egg argument that emerges between players and movie titles.
Daewoo is closest to the mark right now, with the 2.0 player it showed off in September. (It is conceivable that Daewoo could roll out its 2.0 player before Sony launches a 1.1 player.) Meanwhile, Disney is talking about releasing BD Live content next year including Finding Nemo and The Chronicles of Narnia. There is a chance the PS3 will be compatible with the online interactive portion.
What's in it for you? If you love your Blu-ray, try and buy one of the players that meet the 1.1 spec, or at least hang onto that PS3. Although this isn't a piece about the format war, your best bet may be to shop for the a Duo. As Samsung's Sullivan told us, "We believe Blu-ray has the best chance in the long run, but in the short term, Duo is the best for consumers. You just pick a movie, play it and enjoy." While the jury's still out on that first part, the second bit sounds just right to me.
Note: I did not discuss HD DVD at length in this piece, but will save it for a piece entitled "The State of HD DVD." Let's try and keep the discussion around Blu-ray itself, if just for today. From the looks of things, there will still plenty of opportunities to bitch about the format war later.
Comments
Just tell me when the format war is over and when standard DVD's become obsolete, then I will care and buy whichever format is being used universally.
If the BD Full Profile (2.0) was finished from day 1, why aren't manufacturers making 2.0 players yet? Not even Denon, with its premium prices, is making a 2.0 player.
I can't be the only one for whom that makes no sense whatsoever...
@gokor: Exactly. This is interesting trivia for video geeks, I suppose, but 99.99% of the market won't get within a mile of either Blu-Ray or HDVD (let alone sub-variations thereof) until there's one clear market winner.
Given that the PS3 is, at heart, a very powerful computer featuring a gigabit ethernet port, I cannot see how it would not be capable of meeting any rational future standard with the appropriate firmware/software. I am seriously considering getting a second one once they hit $350 as a player / media extender for the bedroom and retiring the old XBMC so I can move all my content to MP4. For the PS3 to truly come into its own a a media extender, they need to enable surrond audio from the XMB - considering that some of the new media extenders are priced around $300, the PS3 really does seem to be a bargain.
It seems to me that we lack positioning from big names, small names, stores and individuals. If this war is left to go on it can go on indefinetly, and positions like CNET's (hold and wait until the war is over) aren't helping...
anyways, I'm holding off. Can't spend €1000 on a duo device, and won't spend €300 on a "solo" device that could be dead within months. Specially here in Spain where hd-dvds and blu-rays aren't in rental shops yet.
@ CANOEHEAD
what's your experience using the PS3 as a media player? It doesn't support divX or xvid movies does it? Isn't it a pain in the ass having to convert everything to ps3 mp4?
@Canoehead:
i would be very interested to hear if anyone can confirm this as actually possible.OK, I made it about half way through that before I gave up.
I am feeling more and more confident about my $100 HD-DVD player purchase last week.
Wow, embarrassing.
The PS3 seems to be the best avenue if Blu-ray wants to constantly update their spec. It has beefy hardware in place and a large portion of them are more likely to be connected to the internet vs. a standard player.
No market Standard=$0.00 from me. Good ol regular DVDs still churnin away while everyone is fighting to see who reigns above all, guess we're not getting a definite standard till about 2010 maybe cause people LOVE to fight.
yawn, call me when it's over.
Why do the people making this crap think that people care about anything other than price tag and being able to play movies in HD. Movie trailers! Whoo! Because movies don't have enough on them already. Shopping on my DVD player! Are you kidding me? Buying Wii points is a big of enough PITA, and the Wii has a fancy remote.
Well I'm glad with the PIP I'll be able to watch the director of "Game Plan" discuss the artistry of that film while still being able to see The Rock's mug in the corner. Really though, how many movies deserve extra content? And of those, how many have a big enough DVD budget to warrant paying for all this crap when they can post snippets on a website or even Youtube..?
The PS3 is also the only Blu-ray player that has wireless firmware updates.
I was hoping as well when I updated my ps3 this morning to 2.0 that it would include 1.1, but I guess not. Oh well, I'm sure sooner or later Sony will get there shit together and put it in a future update.
OK, seriously.... Blu-ray players are made to get software updates... these new versions of the profile are a good thing, not a bad thing.
I think it can't go wrong with a $99 HD-dvd player. Even if the format became obsolete, it's a good upscaling dvd player at a decent price.
Honestly, unless the extras are something special (and I'm talking Extended Edition Lord of the Rings special) I don't care about them beyond audio commentary (and even that's only in certain situations).
HD-DVD = BD 3.0
haha...let the forum wars begin
@gokor: Basically.
For those of us that like having a consistent format in our libraries, and a solid standard that would ensure that our hardware can take the future releases, neither of these products mean dick until one wins.
@HUGGY
You can find HD-DVD and BluRay in the fnac and El Corte Inglés, maybe in Media Markt too, not to mention of PS3 and XBOX HD-DVD, we are not such outdated here in spain...
Valis
"In our heart and soul, we are looking at a true universal player, if that's what the market dictates. And it won't just play all video discs, but it will play SACD and DVD-Audio as well."
Yeah. That would be super. And if you could do it and get the price sub-$200, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
If not, I can wait...
Yeah, but does it have that full 1080 HD? It's flaming dog crap if it doesn't have that full true HD 1080 whatchamecallit.
I admit I don't know what that actually means, but I saw no one had said it yet.
I accidentally attempted to explain the BR/HDDVD to the masses this weekend during the .5 superbowl. I don't recommend it.
@smitty1123:
[www.youtube.com]
@Lorne: Don't worry; no-one else knows what it means either.
@VALIS
I was talking about video rentals, there are very few HD discs to rent right now...
anyways, what did you choose, hd-dvd or blu-ray? :)
@arkowi:
Me too. $100 for a player & 5 movies. HD-DVD can through in the towel on Jan 1 2008 & I'll still feel like I made a good decision last week.
Of course, until that Walmart special last week, I was definatly in the same camp as FusedInertis.
I rarely buy movies, but I subscribe to Netflix. How many movies are available in each format in the Netflix system? Bickering about specs is stupid. Content is king.
what I really don't understand is why anybody would actually produce stand-alone br players in competition with Sony. If I was going to get a BR player (I am on the sidelines for now, neither BR nor HD-DVD) I for sure would get a PS3, since
#1 it's made by Sony, so whatever new profile or anything for SURE it would be released for it
#2 least amount of compatibility issues, as given that it's the player with the largest install base all studios will QA on PS3 for sure
#3 guaranteed non-obsolescence and availability for several years, due to the gaming side of things
why would I spend hundreds more (or even the same) for a 'standalone' which might or might not be upgradable to 1.1, which might or might not have firmware issues with movies released in the next couple of years, etc.?
As far as I remember when DVD came out the PS2 was an 'ok' DVD player, not the best DVD player around (and cheaper than standalones to boot).
What a friggin mess! Seriously, this is embarassing! Combine this standards mess with the problems they are having getting the production costs down (both hardware and software), and I really have to wonder why all these studios remain steadfast in the Blu-Ray camp?
HD-DVD on the other hand, has their shit together. I bought the Xbox add-on drive a while back and it works great. The movies look briliant! The one argument for Blu Ray (double the storage space) sure hasn't made a measurable difference in image quality.
@bandit:
exactly. Content and price are the only things that matter.
@redgopher: Actually, not all Blu-Ray players are built to be able to support profiles beyond 1.0, as the article states:
"The current lineup of Sony Blu-ray players, on the other hand, can never reach it, with or without firmware update."
@redgopher: The software updates are usually to fix problems they have with DRM schemes they keep messing with not with improving the player.
Blu-ray disc's come with a little note telling you it will not play in some players. sad.
Gotta go with HD DVD. I will never buy anything Sony ever again. I am so god damn sick of their fucked up business methods.
"make the product as future-proof as possible"
If they really wanted to do that, they'd make it an HD-DVD player...
@huggy: Adivina... I'm waiting, everybody's waiting, that is why this format war will end in two obsolete formats eaten by solid memory flash, just imagine a read-only 50 Gb flash usb 3.0 like a business card, plug it directly to your 52'' plasma display, without the need of a decoder and relax, no more scratches, AACC or Nero Burning ROM... That is the future of digital information, I find it even better than holographic disks, what do you think?
Valis
@bslenter: My guess: because Sony's got one hell of a lot of money.
TSOLFAN is right. None of the stand-alone "initial profile" Blu-ray players will EVER be able to be updated to a profile 1.1 player. Profile 1.1 requires a secondary video decoder to support PIP in hardware. Only the PS3 has any hope of being able to be updated to 1.1.
This is just one of the reasons that HD DVD should coexist if not outright win the format war. Every HD DVD player from day one has had the equivalent feature set of Blu-ray profile 2.0. Blu-ray *might* get there two years later..
@EMoShunz: TVersity is a must-have for any PS3 owner. It streams your media over the network to the PS3, and converts files the PS3 can't play natively on the fly.
So, XviD and DivX files are converted by your PC to MPEG-2, which the PS3 plays just fine. Zero conversion steps required.
The reason why this proflie business isn't a bigger deal is because all these extras have amounted to mostly bullet-points and not anything compelling. Joe Average just wants to watch Spider-Man, not watch special features in a PIP box and then go online for some interactive trivia game or whatever. I'm not saying that stuff can't be fun, but just that it represents such a small fraction of what people actually care about.
It's all about the discs. I could care less if BD and HD DVD players were free... I don't want to buy hundreds of dollars in discs that end up being "Beta". In this sense, BD is just as sound a buy now as HD DVD because the DISCS for both will play in all future players.
@huggy: I use the PS3 as a media center. All my content is legitimate, so it's never DivX/XviD to begin with. IF I did have DivX/XviD content I would convert it though.
PADRIAC: I can't argue that some people just want to watch the movie, but advanced interactivty can without a doubt be compelling. The PIP feature of 300 on HD DVD is a good example. Really, their is no limiting factor on how compelling this content can be. Things are just getting started.
And while you could "care less", the studios most definitely care. They are looking for ways to differentiate high definition optical media from standard DVD to increase the rate of adoption. The increased resolution on the disc only goes part of the way.
I have to say I'm a bit hacked that my Sony Blu-Ray player won't support PiP - ever. Though I have a TV with it, and I've never used it.
If there's a feature, and nobody used it, does it really exist? Or is this just sour grapes.
I think I'll go read a High Definition book.
@leicaman:
make sure your eyes have the latest firmware and the HDBook your attempting to read doesn't have a rootkit. O and make sure there is no DRM...because that can cause other parts of your body to hurt...think lower...nope lower...yep right there.
Ok, I officially hate blu ray now. What the hell is wrong with them that they couldn't ship a complete specification when the damn thing came out?
The movie 300 is a great example of why these advanced features do not matter - 300 on Blu-Ray handily outsold (and continues to outsell) the HD-DVD version.
Also what is not mentioned is that other companies have used the larger space available on Blu-Ray to simply include a second video track that includes the PIP, skirting around the need for 1.1! This is feasible since you can compress the hell out of that track, since people are more interested in the general nature of the content than the quality.
@kgelner:
The reason 300 did well on Blu-Ray was solely because it was $5 cheaper. The HD-DVD version not only had advanced features, it also included the full DVD version on the reverse side of the disc. As with most combo discs it was more expensive.
This strategy of systematically screwing over early adopters with these Player Profiles is another example of the Sony Proprietary Curse. For god's sake this is absolutely ridiculous. I hope HD DVD's newly-deducted players will entice more studios to go at least neutral, and thereby more hardware manufacturers so we can have a standard that is already finished. It seems like Blu-Ray is still in the Beta stage.