@deanbmmv: It's more then a container, it's a branding and fixed settings of the H.264/AAC codecs. Devices and software can say they are iFrame compatible to help avoid confusion on if something will work with something else.
If it works or not, only time will tell. Basically think of it like MP3. That name became the easier way of knowing if something worked with MPEG1 Layer 3 Audio encoded at a constant bitrate up to a maximum of 320kbit. #iframevideo
Isn't the question whether this really is a new standard that Apple just "made up", or because it is based on other industry standards does that make it an industry standard by default? Confused yet? I am.
Wait, do codecs really die? At least ones which have achieve any sort of widespread (cross-app, cross-platform) usage? This is a serious question.
Has there ever been an image file format that ImageMagick can't still read? Or a video codec (not DRM) that, I dunno, VLC can't still read? Is someone going to remove the GIF decoder from Photoshop or Webkit just because PNG roxors?
Certainly Apple in particular loves to screw old customers when it comes to CPU architectures and whatnot, but AAC is not Apple-proprietary. Hmm, maybe QuickTime 1.x file aren't playable in QuickTime X? I can tell you that my iPhone can play AIFF files, and that's a 21 year old format.
Anyway, your point about lossless being preferable for future re-encoding is certainly valid. I'm just not necessarily convinced that digital codecs will ever become unreadable. Eight-track is of course not analogous because what's missing/broken is a mechanical device.
@DarianEileithyia: Point taken. Regardless of whether or not these codecs will die (which is a highly speculative argument), they will certainly become obsolete. When that happens, it will very likely become more difficult to play legacy formats. Just like how you can still play Eight-tracks today by digging around for an old player, perhaps you will still be able to play AAC, MP3 and the rest by digging around for an old codec.
I would rather avoid that, though, by keeping my music in a format that allows me to easily convert to the standard lossy format of the moment.
regarding "the ultimate archival format would be 24-bit, 96KHz tracks, maybe even 192KHz someday" I suggest you read The Emperor's New Sampling Rate (http://mixonline.com/recording/mixing/audio_emperors_new_sampling/index.html)
I'm a huge believer in ABX testing. I will readily admit that, in my own trials, I am unable to tell the difference between compressed files and lossless files on my equipment, let alone between 44.1KHz and 96KHz material. It would just be nice to at least have the option of buying music at that high of a resolution for archiving. Whether or not I would use it is another question, but I'm sure there are some out there who would.
The section about the 24-bit, 96KHz recordings being available was not meant to imply that I can hear a difference. It was included to illustrate that for less than what iTunes charges you can have something that is, from a technical standpoint, better than CD audio.
Did i really just read "When AAC is put out to pasture" WTF does that even mean? AAC is just a better .mp3 format. IT IS NOT A DRM format.
While it is a lossy format it is better than .mp3, have you had to throw out your .mp3's recently cause FLAC exists? I dont understand what you mean by that statement.
@Eulatos: Codecs die. Think about all the formats that exist today. How many do you think you'll be able to decode in 30 years?
Hardware is going to change drastically over the next few decades, and it's unclear whether anyone will see the need to write an AAC decoder for quantum computers when everyone is just having music beamed directly into their brain anyway.
@Chris Jacob: Sure Chris, and how many formats purchased 30 years ago can you still play today? Cassettes? 8-Tracks? Vinyl Records? If you don't have old equipment, it's pretty tough. So even physical media has a limited lifespan. I'd wager that AAC will be no less durable in 30 years than any other form.
Giggle. It's adorable how delusional you guys are. I often work with professional musician who constantly claim they can tell the difference between various formats and compressed music. And over and over they identify the wrong one.
But I'm sure you're different. You really CAN tell the difference. ;-)
@grovberg: sure the average person can't tell the difference between mp3's and lossless on $200 speakers. But I used to test this all the time and on a good reference system, genelecs dynaudio etc most musicians could easily tell within 3 seconds which was which. and engineers could tell almost instantly.
But that doesn't even matter because you are missing the point completely. the article talks about archiving, you need lossless audio for archival purposes. Because I can assure you after you transcode that aac or mp3 file a few times to different bitrates the average deaf person will be able t tell the difference between that and lossless.
@grovberg: Whew! Look at that point that just flew way over your head! You missed it.
The point isn't that some people can't tell the difference between lossy and lossless audio. It's that for often much less than the price for an iTunes LP, we can buy the CD or LP with perfect lossless audio. So, the new iTunes LP offers no new benefit or convenience whatsoever.
I totally 100% agree with this article. As it is, I tend to rip a lossless, and then create a lossy version for my iphone and ipod for the car. Which brings me to my next point; I really wish apple would do something to manage this kind of usage. Multiple librarys?
@loriensleafs: Considering the library file load time is really 99% of the iT startup time, is it soooo hard to close and reopen?
That said, I've given up on multiple libraries--too much of a pain to try to keep both updated. I just keep everything lossless and rotate what is on the iPhone.
i dont want lossless files, that would turn my 14.2GB library into a 142GB one. No thanks, lossy files still deliver the punch required without wasting space.
@ProperBritish: Lossless does not mean uncompressed. For example, FLAC is lossless, and can take 700MB of WAV CD Audio down to 140MB. Your library would become about 20GB.
you're missing the point here. really. you're in a true tiny minority that cares about audio quality. i'm right there with ya, but it doesn't matter unfortunately.
lossless files don't matter to joe public. not even remotely. AAC is more than good enough. if you do a listening test on even half decent consumer playback equipment you will find that only one person in 10,000 can hear the difference.
the key for consumers is convenience, not quality. the fact that they can find any music instantly more than covers the maybe factor of getting better quality from a cd.
let me say here that I am actually a professional sound guy, and I've written a bunch of hit records too over the years. and even cd quality sounds terrible to me. it is only 16 bit 44.1k - in other words, every 44.1 thousandth of a second there is dead silence and the playback system has to 'make up' the sound until the next sample plays. it still sounds gritty to my ears.
try listening to an original analog recording mastered on analog, say 'kind of blue' by miles davis on a good vinyl system with a new stylus and compare that to the cd version. it's astonishing what we are missing.
i was involved with the aborted sony 'one bit oversampling' HD CD system a few years ago - it sounded fantastic, nearly as good as the analogue masters but the public didn't hear the difference and so it was quietly dropped.
"every 44.1 thousandth of a second there is dead silence" is laughable misrepresentation. Read Wikipedia's PCM article some time.
Also, the disks are called SACD, the one-bit stream technology is called DSD, and both are still going as niche formats.
Anyway, I'm a big fan of vinyl too and would love to see a single "better than CD" format be adopted for sale to obsessive fans as both the ultimate digitization of analog masters and a better-than-CD distribution format. Double-rate DSD could be that format but it's tightly controlled by Sony, and others think higher-res PCM Formats like DTS-HD Master Audio (on Blu-ray) or DXD are audibly superior. And as you say, most people don't care.
My experience with LPs was that they didn't sound crystal clear anyway--Pops and crackles anyone?
Perhaps Apple is keeping alive the memory of those less-than-perfect-sounding LPs by having less-than-perfect-sounding AACs, thus the appropriate name.
@RenitaBabcia: With a good turntable and proper stylus, a clean, properly stored album should not pop or crackle. The potential is there for a superior experience to listening to a CD.
However, in my experience, once the album gets a few hundred plays on it, or gets mishandled or dirty, or the needle goes south, the quality drops. I find it much harder to make sure I am able to enjoy an album vs. the limited care needed to enjoy a CD. CD quality is fine for me, and I find the size still acceptable to allow artwork, text, etc. This LP format has the potential to convert a few people such as myself to non-tangible purchases, but it would have to be lossless (or better quality than a CD) to grab me.
You do realize when a format is lossless, you can encode it to any format you want? You have the original source files, there is no "standard" - just like ZIP, RAR, ARJ, etc.. and you can convert it to whatever format you want, lossless or lossy.
@NadineSalamander: Right, of course. Going from lossless to lossless is a trivial task. It's another huge advantage of lossless. You're library size could easily decrease over the next few years once more formats come along that offer better compression ratios.
10/13/09
Odd.
10/13/09
Yep, that's the same resolution that HD discs allow when a Bluray PC player is connected to a non-HDCP display.
10/13/09
Also why 540p? Thats like the ginger kid of 1080i
Currently this new 'standard' is sounding unnecessary.
10/13/09
10/13/09
10/15/09
If it works or not, only time will tell. Basically think of it like MP3. That name became the easier way of knowing if something worked with MPEG1 Layer 3 Audio encoded at a constant bitrate up to a maximum of 320kbit. #iframevideo
10/13/09
10/13/09
10/13/09
10/13/09
10/13/09
09/10/09
Has there ever been an image file format that ImageMagick can't still read? Or a video codec (not DRM) that, I dunno, VLC can't still read? Is someone going to remove the GIF decoder from Photoshop or Webkit just because PNG roxors?
Certainly Apple in particular loves to screw old customers when it comes to CPU architectures and whatnot, but AAC is not Apple-proprietary. Hmm, maybe QuickTime 1.x file aren't playable in QuickTime X? I can tell you that my iPhone can play AIFF files, and that's a 21 year old format.
Anyway, your point about lossless being preferable for future re-encoding is certainly valid. I'm just not necessarily convinced that digital codecs will ever become unreadable. Eight-track is of course not analogous because what's missing/broken is a mechanical device.
09/11/09
I would rather avoid that, though, by keeping my music in a format that allows me to easily convert to the standard lossy format of the moment.
09/10/09
09/10/09
I'm a huge believer in ABX testing. I will readily admit that, in my own trials, I am unable to tell the difference between compressed files and lossless files on my equipment, let alone between 44.1KHz and 96KHz material. It would just be nice to at least have the option of buying music at that high of a resolution for archiving. Whether or not I would use it is another question, but I'm sure there are some out there who would.
The section about the 24-bit, 96KHz recordings being available was not meant to imply that I can hear a difference. It was included to illustrate that for less than what iTunes charges you can have something that is, from a technical standpoint, better than CD audio.
09/10/09
09/10/09
While it is a lossy format it is better than .mp3, have you had to throw out your .mp3's recently cause FLAC exists? I dont understand what you mean by that statement.
09/10/09
Hardware is going to change drastically over the next few decades, and it's unclear whether anyone will see the need to write an AAC decoder for quantum computers when everyone is just having music beamed directly into their brain anyway.
09/10/09
09/13/09
09/10/09
But I'm sure you're different. You really CAN tell the difference. ;-)
09/10/09
But that doesn't even matter because you are missing the point completely. the article talks about archiving, you need lossless audio for archival purposes. Because I can assure you after you transcode that aac or mp3 file a few times to different bitrates the average deaf person will be able t tell the difference between that and lossless.
09/10/09
The point isn't that some people can't tell the difference between lossy and lossless audio. It's that for often much less than the price for an iTunes LP, we can buy the CD or LP with perfect lossless audio. So, the new iTunes LP offers no new benefit or convenience whatsoever.
09/10/09
09/10/09
09/10/09
09/10/09
That said, I've given up on multiple libraries--too much of a pain to try to keep both updated. I just keep everything lossless and rotate what is on the iPhone.
09/10/09
09/10/09
09/10/09
I tend to get something like 450MB per CD with Apple Lossless. I thought FLAC was about the same.
09/10/09
lossless files don't matter to joe public. not even remotely. AAC is more than good enough. if you do a listening test on even half decent consumer playback equipment you will find that only one person in 10,000 can hear the difference.
the key for consumers is convenience, not quality. the fact that they can find any music instantly more than covers the maybe factor of getting better quality from a cd.
let me say here that I am actually a professional sound guy, and I've written a bunch of hit records too over the years. and even cd quality sounds terrible to me. it is only 16 bit 44.1k - in other words, every 44.1 thousandth of a second there is dead silence and the playback system has to 'make up' the sound until the next sample plays. it still sounds gritty to my ears.
try listening to an original analog recording mastered on analog, say 'kind of blue' by miles davis on a good vinyl system with a new stylus and compare that to the cd version. it's astonishing what we are missing.
i was involved with the aborted sony 'one bit oversampling' HD CD system a few years ago - it sounded fantastic, nearly as good as the analogue masters but the public didn't hear the difference and so it was quietly dropped.
there ya go
best to all
will henshall
09/11/09
"every 44.1 thousandth of a second there is dead silence" is laughable misrepresentation. Read Wikipedia's PCM article some time.
Also, the disks are called SACD, the one-bit stream technology is called DSD, and both are still going as niche formats.
Anyway, I'm a big fan of vinyl too and would love to see a single "better than CD" format be adopted for sale to obsessive fans as both the ultimate digitization of analog masters and a better-than-CD distribution format. Double-rate DSD could be that format but it's tightly controlled by Sony, and others think higher-res PCM Formats like DTS-HD Master Audio (on Blu-ray) or DXD are audibly superior. And as you say, most people don't care.
09/10/09
Perhaps Apple is keeping alive the memory of those less-than-perfect-sounding LPs by having less-than-perfect-sounding AACs, thus the appropriate name.
09/10/09
However, in my experience, once the album gets a few hundred plays on it, or gets mishandled or dirty, or the needle goes south, the quality drops. I find it much harder to make sure I am able to enjoy an album vs. the limited care needed to enjoy a CD. CD quality is fine for me, and I find the size still acceptable to allow artwork, text, etc. This LP format has the potential to convert a few people such as myself to non-tangible purchases, but it would have to be lossless (or better quality than a CD) to grab me.
09/09/09
09/10/09