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11/30/09
I appreciate a free-wheeling debate. I like them more, in person, so I hope to meet you over a virgin Pina Colada (I'm a buccaneer who doesn't drink grog, go figure...) and we can sling education statistics and obscure references from social science at each other (be ready to discuss ethnomethodology and radical constructivism, or else I will drink your milkshake.)
James Marcus Bach
11/28/09
Le sigh.
11/28/09
How many people does @jamesmarcusbach employ/manage that are highschool dropouts, and how many of them have college degrees?
It's easy to dismiss the value of an education by citing the people who have made a difference without one. How about listing the many who *do* have degree's that are equally important?
I think that @jamesmarcusbach has made a fundamental flaw in his argument. He says that those on "intellectual autopilot" only study when they're forced to. That's incorrect. They only study subject they care *nothing* about when they're forced too. I don't know of *any* human being that doesn't have passion about *something.* All the author is saying, is taht in 1987, the people working for apple didn't really care much about the job they were doing. That's human nature. Clearly, @JMB was different, he cared about his job, and that's why he excelled.
To his point about college: College isn't for everyone--its unfortunate that not having a degree has a stigma in most societies. If you have a great idea, or have the desire to start a business, or don't want to waste time in college because you already know what you want to do, then by all means work your ass off and make your dreams come true. Some of the most successful businessmen on the planet don't have MBA's let alone formal education.
But if you're dropping out because you don't feel like finishing school, and you're just gonna see what happens, well then thats not a very smart plan. The average salary for a college grad vs a highschool dropout speak for themselves.
11/29/09
This one guy was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time and he took advantage of that fact. He might not have a degree, but I bet he probably worked just as hard as someone who does.
11/29/09
11/29/09
Dumbshit.
11/30/09
Meaningless for what? You mean for the purpose of making choices in your life? Most people never climb Mount Everest. Statistically, it's unlikely that any particular person will succeed in a climb of Everest. But if you were interested in climbing it, would you study statistics showing that millions of people don't climb it every year, or would you rather study the people who do climb it, and talk to them, and learn from them?
I prefer to hire people who are self-educated. It's a bias of mine. I also like hiring loud people, since I'm nervous around quiet people, and men, since I'm comfortable with men. But I've also learned that diversifying my team is vital to the quality of my work. So, I work to transcend my biases so that I can have a powerful team. It's a social and legal virtue, too, but really, I seek diversity because diversity works.
My comment on intellectual autopilot is just my empirical experience and the meaning I've made of it. Your mileage may vary, but I promise you I experience this almost daily and it is a major factor in my perception of my success.
You say it's not a smart plan to "see what happens." But you left out some words. You should have added "by the rules of the game I think I'm playing and by the values and temperament I have." Of course, for people with a different temperament than yours, say someone like me who once went to the principal's office for provoking a teacher to physically assault him, a different plan might be smart. Or for someone with a different set of values, such as me, who cannot feel happy saying "yes, I will follow stupid ceremonial rules that dictate who gets a degree, instead of being judged by people I respect on the merits I genuinely demonstrate in subject matter I care about" it may be best to seek the fresh air on out there.
If you don't know what other people's lives are all about, don't impose your parochial values them. Let them choose the path that works for them. Let there be abundance and freedom, not fear and cynicism.
12/01/09
The salary difference between a high school dropout, a high school graduate, and a college graduate are SIGNIFICANT enough to make an educated decision on what will pay off.
Yes, everyone says go to college, to get a good job. The reason, is that college grads make a lot more over their life time than non college grads. Your experience as a high school dropout is an aberration, not the rule. The lesson from your story isn't "Kids who go to college are suckers, be a drop out and win at the game of life." It should be "I followed my own path, and I made my own success."
What is lost on people like you who espouse "I did it this way, and I succeeded" is that you would have succeeded in *anything* you decided to do. Had you gone to college, I would imagine you would have graduated Summa Cum Laude with the highest honors. People wired like you, are driven to succeed. Had you decided to be a musician, you'd likely be a recognized artist.
But not everyone is. And not everyone is driven that way. Not everyone equates success with climbing the corporate ladder, or running their own company, or even climbing mount everest.
You've also misjudged my temperament. Wouldn't someone like you, who doesn't conform to the norm, sit back and question someone like yourself when they came up with an idea. Seems like the person you claim you are, wouldn't take someone else's word as the gospel. And for the record,I was suspended a few times (not just called into the principals office), given detention for insubordination, barely graduated high school (stupid graduation requirements), and recently left a 200k income to start my own business.
We're arguing the same thing, essentially: people shouldn't conform to a path just because they're suppose to. The difference is that I'm not deriding those that do decide to conform to that path, because as you eloquently said in your last pp:
"If you don't know what other people's lives are all about, don't impose your parochial values them. Let them choose the path that works for them. Let there be abundance and freedom, not fear and cynicism."
11/27/09
11/28/09
11/27/09
11/27/09
I think his assertions that people in degree programs are somehow more likely to be on autopilot is false. He offers no proof, just anecdotal observation.
I think he seriously downplays the disadvantage of not having a degree. For instance, the medical research I am interested involves a deep understanding of both chemistry and medicine. You can't learn these things in a home lab with a ill-gotten cadaver. You need an MD and PhD, not because they are pieces of paper but because the programs provided an environment to experiment that would simply be illegal and impractical to recreate at home.
11/27/09
There's nothing wrong with having a degree. But not having one doesn't automatically condemn a skilled, experienced person to joblessness. That's the point.
(Naturally, as you pointed out, the medical field is one where this tends to not apply. I doubt too many people are considering a homebrew medical degree.)
11/27/09
In my field, I've found many people do that. I can count on this phenomenon. I, who love what I do, am driven to master it. If I loved chemistry and medicine I would master that, too.
When you say "you need an MD and PHD, not because they are pieces of paper" you are not engaging my argument. I'm trying to separate schooling and education. I'm focusing on education, which may be a social process, but ultimately must be personal. I recommend the book The Science of Describing for an interesting take on this. The leading naturalists of the 16th century, many of whom were professors at medical schools, commonly complained that their students applied themselves poorly to the material. They couldn't force their kids to learn well.
Of course, Charles Darwin seems a counter-example, too. He famously dropped out of medical school. He refused to go to the lectures because he found them so boring, but then he made himself into perhaps the most respected naturalist in the world at the time-- writing the definitive works on barnacles.
Or consider the career of Joseph Priestly (see The Invention of Air) who innovated in chemistry and electricity, as you may recall. He was self-educated. So was Voltaire, when he ran his salon and became one of the first great intellectual super-stars.
I understand that you believe in a good education. So do I. To get there, we need to think of it in terms beyond suckling at the teat of external authority. Even though, we both agree, schooling can be helpful.
11/27/09
IMHO, it seems that the author is taking this further, casting serious doubt on the utility of degree programs and intentionally ignoring that his approach simply would not work in many, many fields.
11/27/09
Second, I think gizmodo needs to confer upon you an honorary commenter star STAT.
To engage your point directly, I take issue with the assertion that "some people sit back on their credentials and proceed on the assumption they are "educated" rather than striving to master their art". Perhaps this is true with undergraduate degrees but from what I've seen in the two graduate programs I have been associated with, no one graduates who hasn't striven to become a master of their art. That's probably why they call them master's degrees.
I understand schooling and education are different. However it is very difficult to become an expert in many fields if you do not pass through the schooling process. Likewise, it is very difficult to pass through a graduate curriculum at a major university without also becoming an expert in the subject matter.
11/30/09
I don't agree with you about schooling. Maybe this is because I know what I mean when I say "schooling" and I suspect you mean something different. Perhaps if you saw my education up close you would say, as a professor I hired once said "Oh, that's what we do in our two-year humanities program. You'd like it."
You might enjoy this tidbit:
"The Faculties called liberal [i.e., free] have lost their old time liberty, and are devoted to a slavery so complete that long-haired youths shamelessly possess themselves of the offices in these Faculties, and beardless boys sit in the seat of the Elders, and those who do not yet know how to be pupils strive to be named Doctors. And they themselves compile their own summaries, reeking and wet with [their own] further drivellings, and not even seasoned with the salt of the philosophers. Neglecting the rules of the Arts and throwing away the standard works of the Makers of the Arts, they catch in their sophisms, as in spiders' webs, the midges of their empty trifling phrases. Philosophy cries out that her garments are rent and torn asunder; she modestly covers her nakedness with certain carefully prepared remnants [but] she is neither consulted by the good man nor does she console the good woman."
-- Stephen [Bishop] of Tournai, in his letters directed to the Pope,
laments the ruin of the study of sacred literature, of Canon Law and the Arts, and, blaming the professors, implores the hand of Apostolic
correction. (1192-1203.)
(As cited in: Readings in the History of Education Mediaeval Universities / Norton, Arthur O.)
12/04/09
The buccaneering metaphor is deep. Look at the historical buccaneers! They could not have existed in Europe. Not as a free society. The Corsairs, remember, were essentially state sponsored privateers. I embrace the buccaneering metaphor complete with its limitations.
But the Internet has created a "Spanish Main" for us. I sail that, these days.
11/27/09
11/27/09
Being a self-teacher is so much easier with the internet. Back in the day if you wanted to learn something you had to go to the library and check out books. Know what a card catalog is? Be glad if you don't. Now you can learn just about anything you want to by googling it.
11/28/09
11/27/09
I started two software companies in high school (software for the blind on Apple II's with speech synthesizers and physics educational software). Both very successful. Started a desktop publishing business and freelance graphic design business after dropping-out of UC Berkeley. I have finally settled-down for the past 17 years with my last company - manufacturing and distributing neuroscience research equipment.
Like other commenters, the hardest part has been getting the courage to call myself an electrical engineer when I know I don't even have a bachelors degree.
I credit SteveWoz with lots of my inspiration, and great hardware/software to run it on.
If the job doesn't exist, or they won't hire you, do it in your living room!
11/28/09
But, not everyone has the desire and drive to run their own company.
11/30/09
My father told me to start my own company when I was 16 and build incredible software by myself. I didn't feel up to that challenge. But it was reasonable advice all the same, and I did work toward it in ways that bore fruit later on-- I ended up doing a lot of studying about library science.
11/27/09
11/27/09
(There is a theme in there, but I cant quite put my finger on it.)
11/27/09
I had to capitalize HARD, I don't know why. =D
12/03/09
Some kids are aching to feel that they own their own lives. I'm here to tell them that there's nothing to fear. It's an extremely low risk decision by the way. It's NOT like saying "I'd like to cut my hands off, and try living like that for a while" or "I'd like to have a baby to see what it's like" or "I bet I can escape from a police helicopter, let me try it!" or "I wonder what 'substance abuse' is really about, give me some heroin!"
No, if you want to continue you formal education, there are lots of ways to do it and lots of time to do it in. Meanwhile, whenever you go through formal education, you'll be surrounded by people who, mostly, don't care and aren't trying. For the win!
A KEY POINT OF MY BOOK is not that what I did is hard work. I'm lazy and undisciplined! That's what everyone told me! (except my dad) No, the point is that my hard work doesn't feel like hard work, because I found out how to do what I love to do with the right people around me. It looks like hard work to you, but that's not how it felt.
It takes hard work to reach level 80 on World of Warcraft, but my son did it in a week. He doesn't seem to think it was work, though. Strange...
Don't worry about the work. Just find what you need to do, and stop worrying about where to find the yellow brick road and the Wizard who will grant you wishes.
12/03/09
University is a system for churning out graduates. Talk to professors of undergraduates and see what the attitudes are like among students they encounter. I've done that.
You know, getting a degree also proves that you're alive and breathing. That's important, too. Why not say that?
Which brings me to the next point: The thing I don't understand about the "proves you can work hard" is that there are a thousand other ways to prove the same thing INCLUDING playing getting multiple characters to level 80 of World of Warcraft, or beating Halo III.
Proving that you can operate in a highly structured, political institution of some kind doesn't demonstrate that you can be useful in Silicon Valley. In fact, in my group at Apple, we favored graduates from California State University Chico for the college hire program, because it was said that the system there, unlike that from virtually everywhere else, focused on the pragmatics of writing software.
The managers in our group did not feel that kids came to us trained and ready. Our feeling was that their training would begin at Apple.
11/27/09
I haven't read his book, but from his tone in this excerpt, he seems to feel that those who toil for years in school to earn a degree aren't really independent thinkers, but sheep in the quest of a piece of paper.
"I talked to coworkers who wanted to further their education, but they typically spoke in terms of getting a new piece of paper, such as a bachelor's degree, a masters, or a PhD."
Right. That's because this is how we've measured and confirmed the educational level of individuals for centuries. Educating yourself is fantastic, but try getting a research or medical position by telling them you've really been boning up on your biochemistry lately.
Granted, an advanced degree on someone's resume is by no means a guarantee of the person's intelligence or ability, but it does demonstrate that they've put in the years of hard work that the degree required. That, more than anything else, speaks to the nature of the person.
11/27/09
11/27/09
I'm speaking in terms of what some people here have been using as the value metric for a degree: "working hard towards a goal for an extended period of time".
11/27/09
Some fields are easier than others to "work" your way into. With others, a degree is simply a requirement to perform the job.
11/27/09
Also, take a long at my other (rather long) post on the subject.
11/27/09
11/27/09
Do you know where science comes from? Well, two of the people most credited with the inspiration for creating the vast community we call "science" were Galileo and Francis Bacon. Both of them strongly bucked against the dominant education traditions of the day.
Bacon specifically rejected Scholasticism, which is an extreme form of the "set of standards" you speak of. He helped overthrow that tradition. I'm glad that he did. I consider myself one of his many heirs, carrying on the spirit of his work.
And did you know that in the middle ages, professional artists had to be certified? That is no longer the case, and we have a richer artistic tradition because of it.
Conventional thinkers dislike buccaneers. They are pushy and impolite. That is as it should be. Stay barricaded behind your city gate, if you like. We rule the waves.
11/27/09
We all practice psychology, every day. It's our birthright as humans.
11/27/09
I suggest you read more about the history of educated people. Please don't think you have to enroll in an actual history class to learn the basics of educational history. You can start with Wikipedia, perhaps.
Education is so much more interesting than anything that can be measured with a standardized test.
11/27/09
This is a subject in which you obviously outclass me- you've lived it and literally written the book on it. I'm neither as experienced nor accomplished as yourself, but I will try to make a few points to respond to your well-written statements.
I think that the first and most important thing to realize is that almost no one will be you. Almost no one will be Richard Branson. I won't quote you statistics with which you're almost certainly familiar, but there are definite and measurable disadvantages that face the average US high school dropout, most of whom will not become focused, skilled software programmers.
Traditional, brick-and-mortar education systems allow young people a place to discover what it is they enjoy, and pursue it in a structured manner. I understand that it wasn't for you, and certainly isn't for everyone, but for me, the joy of learning was never dampened by the fact that my education took place in a traditional setting.
I don't want this to degrade into an argument (one that I'd no doubt lose), and I hope you don't take my comments to be attacks on yourself or your ideas, which I hope to better understand after reading the book. I simply feel that, for the vast majority of individuals, traditional education is a path to betterment, not a restraint of true potential.
Thanks again, heading out to order the Kindle edition of your book.
Unless, of course, you wanted to send me a signed copy. =D
11/29/09
So you've done enough work to be educated. That's wonderful. So has everyone who has ever been educated in and out of universities. Whether you do it in institutions or not, it's largely the same thing. Institutions simply have more resources open to you, more experienced mentors available to help you.
And as for "liberating thought"? Well, you claim to have done some reading on the history of education, so I won't pretend to tell you that the brightest intellectual times in human history were where large institutions flourished with great resources, and spread and linked ideas. The invention of the medieval university, the flourishing of renaissance science, the enlightenment schools... And conversely the darkest intellectual times were when those institutions were dark, when people were alone and didn't have the spread of ideas to stimulate them, or great teachers to inspire them.
I honestly don't understand what makes reading Nietzsche outside of a classroom setting more "liberating" than reading it in a classroom, then discussing it, then talking with a professor who's studied it himself for 40 years.
Good for you for ending up where you are. And good for you for writing a book. But your comments here are selling it in a way that really turn me off of you and the whole "buccaneer ruling the intellectual waves" frivolity. Many stupid people are pushy and impolite too. It's not a hallmark of greatness.
11/30/09
I think you are confusing self-confidence and self-acceptance with self-aggrandizement-- a term that I would use to describe the sort of attitude that systematically and pathologically belittles others. I don't think I'm doing that. But if I were to do that, I have colleagues who'll let me know.
My book is not an attack on schooling. It's an attack on schoolism. My attack is rooted in my 26 years of experience being in the computer industry. I talk about what I do, not some speculation about what one could do.
If it's important to you that no one lives a life that rejects intellectual authority and that embraces intellectual merit instead, then I and my fellow buccaneers will annoy the crap out of you. And, I'm afraid that you will find it frivolous-- but we will laugh at you while doing so.
Have you read Bacon's Novum Organum? I'm working in his tradition. If you are really a fan of the great Scholastic tradition. Of COURSE Bacon and I will piss you off. And Voltaire must have driven absolutely nuts "Pope John!"
11/30/09
In point of fact, I do recommend dropping out to every high schooler I meet. I'm rather pushy about it. "Drop out before it's too late!" I say, confident in two things A) almost every kid will ignore me, B) anyone who follows my instructions and wants to go back to school will have no trouble doing so. C) the very few who leave and don't want to go back will have a more interesting and self-determined life.
Much of the "research" on high school dropouts is deeply flawed. First of all, I worry that it's done by people ingrained in the corporate propaganda of learning institutions, and thus involves a conflict of interest. As you know, a lot of academic life involves justifying academic life (I am rather well-informed about this, having several close colleagues who are present or former professors, and having spoken at a couple of academic conferences and heard them bitch about all this).
In well done social research (see Grounded Theory, or Naturalistic Inquiry for two methodological traditions that have strong opinions about this) great pains must be taken to guard against value-laden sampling and analysis.
11/30/09
12/03/09
12/04/09
11/27/09
11/27/09
What really attracts me to history is that it's one-way logic: all past and present events can affect the future, but what you do in the future cannot affect the past.
I also tend to also take the classes that interest me one way or the other, and I find that I learn more out of that experience than just taking a class for industrial workplace purposes.
11/27/09
11/27/09
11/27/09
Psychologically, this thread is quite compelling.
11/27/09
Granted it does have to be done but I don't think I could ever bring myself to do something like software testing full time. I prefer to write stuff, do some informal testing, when I'm happy it should work forget about it and just fix it when someone else finds a problem with it.
12/03/09
Your mileage may vary.
11/27/09