I used to travel to Newark, NJ Penn Station everyday. One day, I see a guy taking pictures from the platform DOWN the tracks. Not of the platform, but he was standing on the edge of the platform, taking shots of the rails coming in/going out the station, w/no trains coming or going out. In all the years I traveled the rails, that's something I had never seen. I can honestly say I don't even remember what race the guy was, just that his behavior was extremely weird, and this was after the Madrid attacks. So I went and found the closest Port Authority officer(s) and reported him. I went back to the platform, and he was still taking photos, this time kneeling down to shoot the rails. My train pulled in, and as we pulled out, I saw the officers talking to the guy.

Truth be told, prior to the Madrid attacks, I would not have alerted anyone. What I suspect happened here is that the guards might have been concerned that he captured them taking a video of the vault combo being entered/punched in. Most vaults have a main combo lock, w/a keyed lock just being used to unlock the "bolt" so that you can turn the handle after entering the combo. Those keyed locks are easy to pick w/homemade tools(I have a surplus vault I found, and picking that keyed lock was easy as could be w/almost no skill. The combo was the ballbuster), so knowing the combo can get you access to the cash vault. They probably had a situation where they called in b/c someone may have got the combo, and the reason no one deleted the picture was that they realized after this idiot caused a ruckus that it was just that, a picture, and there was no video.

 Reply

You've speculated your way into a scenario that may or may not have happened.

I think we can all agree, that when you see rent-a-cops and people start tossin the 9/11 thing around, anybody (you) can start to get extremely pissed off.

 Reply

Also, these aren't "Rent-a-cops". These are Armored Car Guards/Drivers. They are a little higher up than plain "Rent-a-cops".

 Reply

And yes, you should always treat people with the same level of respect you want them to treat you with, even if they don't. You may think mouthing/screaming off to a cop during a stop is "great", but remember that if it comes to trial, people will be less sympathetic. IF, OTOH, you are civil the whole time in stark contrast to someone treating you disrespectfully, that shows. Have you ever heard of Ghandi or Dr. MLK Jr. acting like an idiot while protesting? No.

Here's a little lesson about respect. I had a family friend get pulled over after being called into the State Police by motorists for three counties before they finally caught up to him. My Father, a cop at the time, went to court with him. They talked to the prosecutor, and said they would settle for a lesser charge. Time comes to get in front of the judge, he stands there chewing gum(Judge asked him to remove it) and has his hands in his pocket. Since he was pleading guilty, he had to admit to what he did. He told the Judge, "You know what I did". In the end, the Judge threw out the "deal", and gave him the max penalty for what he was cited for, and told him in the future to act a little more mature.

 Reply

@Hilo: Not to sound like I'm saying every time someone's civil rights are violated, a kitten dies, but... Cops are supposed to be the ones enforcing the law. They get arbitrary and YES, they should be fired. Cops must be held to a higher standard because we, as a society, give them rights that we do not give to ordinary people--including the right to detain citizens and do things that would otherwise be assault and battery.

 Reply

I'm also sure if someone threatened you, you'd call those same cops in a heart beat and ask them to arrest the other person.

 Reply

If anyone is interested in protecting their rights as a photographer, you might consider downloading, printing, and keeping on your person the photographer's bill of rights available here:

[www.krages.com]

 Reply

there has got to be a lawyer that can clear this up for us somewhere in the crowd.

 Reply

The related question, can they detain him, confiscate pictures, assault him... I'd say no. Read the pamphlet I referenced.

Frankly, I'd have tried to leave and let Baldy tackle me. As soon as he touches me--acting in a legal capacity for Wells Fargo, I've got a battery suit (and probably kidnapping suit) against a rather well heeled company.

 Reply

Were this me, me being an insurance defense attorney, and I took a photo of an ATM in a store and then was threatened with being tackled by a guard for a company servicing an ATM in an REI store, I'd take them up on that threat and walk out.

The worst thing that happens is that the guard tackles me and prevents me from leaving. And maybe calls the police. Then, the following week, I retain counsel and sue the ATM company, the company providing the guards, the Police Department, the mall management company, and REI for assault, battery, false imprisonment, negligent hiring, retention and training, and various and sundry civil rights violations.

Then, all those various companies' lawyers would spend some time sending nasty letters to each other as to who was to blame.

And this is why security guards are not supposed to stop you unless they're pretty damned sure that you've actually broken the law. Because if you haven't, they're on the hook for some nasty civil liability.

 Reply

Three wonderful intentional torts that form a proper basis for punitive damages in addition to compensatory and non-economic loss.

 Reply

i am just trying to address his conduct with the picture and whether it was permitted. like you said he was an invitee with no evidence photography was prohibited in the store. and the subject of his admiration is not something forbidden from peering eyes and the actions of the Pinkertons was out of the scope of their duties.

 Reply

"Whether you need permission from property owners

to take photographs while on their premises depends on the circumstances. In most places, you may reasonably

assume that taking photographs is allowed and that you do not need explicit permission. However, this is a judgment call and you should request permission when the circumstances suggest that the owner is likely

to object. In any case, when a property owner tells you not to take photographs while on the premises, you are

legally obligated to honor the request."

 Reply

REI: He was taking pictures of an ATM in our store.

Ins: And?

REI: That's against our policy.

Ins: Did you tell him to leave?

REI: No. The security guard for the ATM company told him if he didn't stop, he'd tackle him.

Ins: Then did you ask him to leave?

REI: No. When he tried, the guard tackled him.

Ins: Do you own the ATM?

REI: No. Another company does. We lease the space to them in exchange for some of the ATM fees.

Ins: So why do you care if someone takes a picture?

REI: Because it's against our store policy.

Ins: Is it against the law?

REI: No, but it's against our store policy.

Ins: So you let a guard tackle him and then you called the police and you detained him until the police came? Instead of asking him to leave the store?

REI: Yes.

Ins: Don't talk to anyone. Don't sign anything. And we're going to be raising your premiums. From now on, if this happens, tell the person to leave.

________________________

I repeat - we do not assault our business invitees. We do not let other people assault our business invitees. Not even if we think there might be some obscure law somewhere. Especially to "protect" someone else's stuff.

If someone is shoplifting, stop them and ask to search the bag. If they refuse, if you still think they're shoplifting, stop them without tackling them and call the police.

If someone is snapping photos and you don't like it, suck it up and ask the person to leave.

 Reply

so, if the man refused to sign the notice for trespass the cops put in front of him and he was booked and processed under what charges would he be booked (probably trespass) and whether the DA would chose to even move forward with prosecuting him. he broke no laws leading up to the trespass warning and the other parties involved acted improperly in the execution of their duties.

 Reply

As strange as your photography hobby is, I don't think its illegal. Back to the pamphlet I linked too:

"Members of the public have a very limited scope of privacy rights when they are in public places. Basically, anyone can be photographed without their consent except when they have secluded themselves in places where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy such as dressing rooms, restrooms, medical facilities, and inside their homes."

 Reply