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Chris Jacob
I see the AG's point of view. They are losing money on one product (audio books) because the Kindle 2 allows the other product (ebook) to act as both. But that argument only works if the user benefits from both products. The blind can't use the ebook version because THEY ARE BLIND. They are using and benefiting from only one product, the audio version. So, technically they are only paying for one item and this whole argument by the AG falls to shit.
Now the people with sight who buy this and use both the audio AND the ebook version spoil the fun and that's why Amazon disabled the feature.
I honestly don't see how they have the right to complain. The books are available in audio format already, so why don't they just buy those instead of an ebook? It's not like the ebook has any other functionality to a blind person.
Call me a jackass, but it just sounds like another case of "I'm disabled so I should get free shit that everyone else has to pay for". Last time I checked, in America, everyone was supposed to be equal.
The Authors Guild's case is that their members will lose royalties from people who purchase their book for a Kindle AND then have it read to them. The issue here is that they are accustomed to reaping even greater royalties from having an author or other "professional reader" read the book to you. In my opinion, a blind person who pays what everyone else pays for a book shouldn't have to pay extra to enjoy the book because of their disability. I think the author and publishers should have to eat their losses on this one.
@jestermeister: and by losses you actually mean the money that they didn't make and the money they would have spent for the production of an actual audio book, right? Cuz that's not really lost losses, just lost opportunity.
The subtext to the Authors Guild argument is that they are implying that there is no value to having a human read the book. That really devalues voice actors and authors who impart something more with their reading. If there is a value, people will pay for it. If not, the robots win. Either way, they have no standing for this argument and should back way off.
@weatherman: By losses, I do mean lost opportunity, but also losses in terms of sales figures dropping as a result of previously established sales numbers for audiobooks. I also agree with Morgan that it actually doesn't really make sense for a blind person to purchase an e-book reader when they could get an mp3 player of any sort and listen to all the audio books they want (albeit for a slightly higher price) on a more compact device. Perhaps for married couples where one is blind and one sighted, there would be an issue...I don't know. Just glad I can see!
@jestermeister: Morgan is just plain wrong. Check out what's available as an audio book vs. what's in print and you'll quickly see that the audio book selection is very limited. And they are more expensive. The reason for both is simple; in order to make an audio book, they need to get the author or another voice actor (or actors) to spend dozens of hours in an expensive studio, then pay others to edit it and put it out there. It's an expensive process and not all books get that treatment. When they do, the audiobooks sell for more money than the printed book, in part because there is a limited market for audio books and the cost of production needs to be spread among a smaller number of people. But if the audio book doesn't need to be "made" in the first place, there is no additional expense. So we're really talking about the Authors Guild wanting to get paid for a missed opportunity to make additional profit for something that they're not doing - it's like those stories about farmers who get paid by the government to not farm corn. This is just the Authors Guild looking for a handout for not working.
But all of that misses the main point, which is that there is no legitimate claim that the Authors Guild has in the first place. So we never need to do a calculation about whether it's better for publishers or not, whether they might lose money, or whether it's better for blind people to have access to a larger, less expensive library of reading material. We only need to look at the law, and the law says that the Authors Guild has no right to stop Amazon from doing this in the first place.
If you've ever heard a Kindle speak, you'd know that this will not replace audio books.
Regarding lost royalties - the person already bought the book, so royalties have been paid for at least the print version.
As for getting any book on audio - there are many, many books without audio versions. Whether they are simply less popular books, special interest, or reference, some books just don't warrant audio versions.
If the audio portion of the Kindle could hold a flame (see how I did that) to audio books, then the Guild's complaints would hold more credibility.
Also, let's not forget that each book can have it's own audio setting - so this is not an all or nothing situation.
@drzeller: you make some excellent points and at least one good pun, but I think your wrong on one thing; even if the voice was better on the Kindle, their argument still wouldn't have more credibility. Legally speaking they really don't have an argument.
@drzeller: "If the audio portion of the Kindle could hold a flame (see how I did that) to audio books, then the Guild's complaints would hold more credibility."
Well, I'm gonna go all devil's advocate nere for a moment. While I believe that the Author's Guild has WAY overreacted--enough so to put them dangerously close to claiming the titile "RIAA Asshats for a New Generation"--they do have one very strong consideration.
Yes, it is true that TODAY's text-to-speech technology does not come even remotely close to a true vocal recording's quality (superior) and emotional resonance (vastly superior). However, that limitation IS likely to change over time...possibly very little time. I can easily see a computer-generated voice becoming not only completely natural sounding but, with expected developments in AI, also a reasonably good "performer" in the not-too-distant future. At that point, human performers could become impacted by this technology--and, BTW, this potential conflict is coming for all forms of performance, including movies with 100% digital actors.
So, while they are, IMO, out of line wacky today, the Author's Guild does need to at least define that line in the sand for protection in future days.
@bosskev: This argument gets fuzzy too. When factories advanced technologically and became mostly automated, robots took over blue collar jobs. In the case that text-to-speech technology does indeed become on par (or superior) to human actors, what obligations would publishers and studios have in continuing to spend money on voice actors when they can have it done on the cheap?
Personally I'm not holding my breath for the uncanny valley to be crossed, but I promise you this if it is:
I will pee my pants for exactly 30 seconds and then run around with arms flailing above my head until I get tired and fall asleep. I'll be OK after that.
@bosskev: but the Guild is not in charge here. Copyright law is. The Authors Guild represents less than 10,000 authors, lawyers and agents, not everyone who writes. They have no special status under the law to be calling the shots or influencing these sorts of decisions.
If Congress wants to call the Authors Guild to testify while Congress considers revising copyright law to outlaw text-to-speech, that's fine, but it's Congress that makes the decision and right now the law is pretty clear that Amazon's Kindle doesn't violate copyright.
@jibbly: "In the case that text-to-speech technology does indeed become on par (or superior) to human actors, what obligations would publishers and studios have in continuing to spend money on voice actors when they can have it done on the cheap?"
Publishers and studios would have NO obligations to continue working with live performers. I believe that concern is at the heart of the Authors Guild's fears. And this is where collective voices comes into play, to sway opinion favorably in the absence of obligation, whether it is yielding to the combined cries of blind protesters or to the ultimatums of a unionized work force.
Ultimately it will come down to both artistic and business decisions: who can produce what performance at what cost? The near-future is going to be incredibly interesting in this area.
The Guild (of Calamitous) Authors needs to lighten up a little. They are acting like the RIAA and being scared of any sort of change to their business.
@tok3ninja: Gawd, you are SO right. Make me a bit embarassd to aspire to be an author. Thankfully, my guild (should I ever make it) would the Writer's Guild (screenplays)--I just hope they don't prove to be so RIAAish wacky like this Author's Guild.
"Several seeing eye dogs joined in expressing their distaste."
This canines-in-solidarity protest arose from the Author's Guild second point of legal contention, that the authors alone should have the right to lick their own butts.
I'm all for blind people rights, but isn't it a bit ridiculous to protest the lack of features on a commercial product? Shouldn't it be up to Amazon or the authors to decide if they care about the blind people market? It's like yelling at Apple because iPods do not have braille buttons. At some point, it just doesn't make sense.
@Hello Mister Walrus: Try that again. Try i bought the product and it CAME with the ability to convert text to speech just like my MAC DOES FOO! What is different here? Exactly, in fact if the blind people wanted to be "Douches" like so many of you so quick to trample another citizens RIGHTS..they could simply sue under ADA they didnt. They simply are asking Amazon to not disable it. The AG would then have to sue and thats gonna put them on the WRONG side of Federal Law.
So before you go spouting off like you know anything realize #1 every PC/Laptop comes with this feature (because of ADA)....and now the AG this is different...this is not right. SCREW THE AG AND SCREW YOU. It is people like you who would actively seek to remove rights from others because of your ignorance. You sir are a plaque and a blight on the American Dream.
@Hello Mister Walrus: "...isn't it a bit ridiculous to protest the lack of features on a commercial product? Shouldn't it be up to Amazon..."
I absolutely disagree with the first half of your argument, HMW. It is NOT ridiculous for ANY group, special interest or otherwise, to speak up or protest about anything they so desire. That's at the heart of the concept of freedom of speech and, IMO, is our civic duty to DO so.
To the second half, it most definitely IS up to Amazon whether or not they wish to accommodate that demand. They ARE a commercial concern and can run their business anyway they desire within the law. However, the way Amazon will arrive at their decision is through considered deliberation, which includes a full hearing of public opinion.
Let the blind voice their thoughts; indeed, encourage them, and anyone else, to do so.
@bud-strange: Just because he has an opinion that you do not agree with does not make him either ignorant, or a douche, but calling him either makes you both.
For your part, an intelligent observation marred by name calling only reduces your stance, and serves no purpose. Mr. Walrus started his statement by saying he is for the rights of those concerned, but then raised a valid question, to which he did not know the answer.
I, for one, am glad you are not a teach. Little Timmy: "Mrs. Bud-Strange, did the French-Indian War really just involve French Indians?"
Mrs. Bud-Strange: "No, you little ignorant douche, it did not."
Little Timmy: "Thanks Teach, you really set me straight!"
Sometimes there just no pleasing people. You can get unabridged audiobook versions of just about every book on the market. Does EVERY product have to tailor itself to the needs of every special interest group? Maybe some of the protesters would like to be 747 pilots. Is Boeing supposed to develop a special 747 that the blind can fly too?
@EBone: The National Federation of the Blind is acting appropriately. Anyone has a right to demand anything. Whether or not that demand is reasonable is up to debate.
In this case, unlike your bizarrely irrelevant 747 analogy, the technology already exists and, in fact, was already included in the device. It has only been disabled due to political concerns, not practical/technological concerns.
No, we do not need to bow down to the unreasonable demands of extremist groups. Do you believe that re-enabling the existing text-to-speech technology is doing that?
Well that makes Ebone and tjmarkham3 certified "DOUCHE BAGS"
Its not about them having a special interest and putting cost on to the AG. It is about the AG trying to claim that the simple text to speech is a performance...which it is clearly not. It is about the AG being greedy. It is about the AG trying to take away rights that the customer has. It is about the AG being "Douche BAGS" just like you two.
@B.Waite: I guess all those bestsellers on audible.com are in my imagination.
As to the rest of the disagreements, you are correct that my 747 analogy is inappropriate. And you are correct that the NFB has the right to protest. And Amazon has the right to protect itself from litigation by the AG.
@bud-strange: Like blind people, the authors' guild also has rights that they are entitled to exercise, even if it is distasteful to do so. What constitutes rights for either the AG or blind consumers are not easily defined, hence the whole argument. I admit that my opinion has changed due to some of the arguments posted here.
Your bigotry, however, makes me want to vomit. People are not douche bags for having opinions. You are a douche bag for whining at everyone you disagree with and acting like a 5-year old.
Maybe Amazon should team up with the Intergalactic Consortium of Angry Housewives so that they can sway their decision with a dose of point-of-view gun.
The Writer's Guild of America and the Author's Guild are two separate and distinct organizations. Actually, three, since the WGA is split into East and West. And then, there's the National Writer's Union, which is another thing entirely.
Might want to clean up the story a bit to clarify.
04/07/09
Now the people with sight who buy this and use both the audio AND the ebook version spoil the fun and that's why Amazon disabled the feature.
04/07/09
Call me a jackass, but it just sounds like another case of "I'm disabled so I should get free shit that everyone else has to pay for". Last time I checked, in America, everyone was supposed to be equal.
04/07/09
1) Very few books are available in audiobook format (let alone unabridged).
2) Audiobooks are generally more expensive than their print (or e-book) counterparts.
3) E-books are far more accessible than audiobooks, and have many features that make them easier to use than an audiobook.
4) Nobody is asking to be given anything for free. The NFB is asking that the Kindle be allowed to do what it does out-of-the-box.
So, yeah, you're a jackass.
04/07/09
04/07/09
We don't need to, your writing speaks for itself.
04/07/09
04/07/09
The subtext to the Authors Guild argument is that they are implying that there is no value to having a human read the book. That really devalues voice actors and authors who impart something more with their reading. If there is a value, people will pay for it. If not, the robots win. Either way, they have no standing for this argument and should back way off.
04/07/09
04/08/09
But all of that misses the main point, which is that there is no legitimate claim that the Authors Guild has in the first place. So we never need to do a calculation about whether it's better for publishers or not, whether they might lose money, or whether it's better for blind people to have access to a larger, less expensive library of reading material. We only need to look at the law, and the law says that the Authors Guild has no right to stop Amazon from doing this in the first place.
04/07/09
Regarding lost royalties - the person already bought the book, so royalties have been paid for at least the print version.
As for getting any book on audio - there are many, many books without audio versions. Whether they are simply less popular books, special interest, or reference, some books just don't warrant audio versions.
If the audio portion of the Kindle could hold a flame (see how I did that) to audio books, then the Guild's complaints would hold more credibility.
Also, let's not forget that each book can have it's own audio setting - so this is not an all or nothing situation.
D.
04/07/09
04/07/09
Well, I'm gonna go all devil's advocate nere for a moment. While I believe that the Author's Guild has WAY overreacted--enough so to put them dangerously close to claiming the titile "RIAA Asshats for a New Generation"--they do have one very strong consideration.
Yes, it is true that TODAY's text-to-speech technology does not come even remotely close to a true vocal recording's quality (superior) and emotional resonance (vastly superior). However, that limitation IS likely to change over time...possibly very little time. I can easily see a computer-generated voice becoming not only completely natural sounding but, with expected developments in AI, also a reasonably good "performer" in the not-too-distant future. At that point, human performers could become impacted by this technology--and, BTW, this potential conflict is coming for all forms of performance, including movies with 100% digital actors.
So, while they are, IMO, out of line wacky today, the Author's Guild does need to at least define that line in the sand for protection in future days.
04/07/09
*devil's advocate here*
04/07/09
Personally I'm not holding my breath for the uncanny valley to be crossed, but I promise you this if it is:
I will pee my pants for exactly 30 seconds and then run around with arms flailing above my head until I get tired and fall asleep. I'll be OK after that.
04/07/09
If Congress wants to call the Authors Guild to testify while Congress considers revising copyright law to outlaw text-to-speech, that's fine, but it's Congress that makes the decision and right now the law is pretty clear that Amazon's Kindle doesn't violate copyright.
04/07/09
Publishers and studios would have NO obligations to continue working with live performers. I believe that concern is at the heart of the Authors Guild's fears. And this is where collective voices comes into play, to sway opinion favorably in the absence of obligation, whether it is yielding to the combined cries of blind protesters or to the ultimatums of a unionized work force.
Ultimately it will come down to both artistic and business decisions: who can produce what performance at what cost? The near-future is going to be incredibly interesting in this area.
04/07/09
04/07/09
04/07/09
*Makes...embarrassed...would be*
Perhaps my first guild should be the Extremely Poor Typists' Guild.
04/07/09
04/07/09
Noe. You tpos nedd too xcede 50%. Pleas make moore misteaks and resumit.
04/07/09
04/07/09
04/07/09
04/07/09
04/07/09
04/07/09
This canines-in-solidarity protest arose from the Author's Guild second point of legal contention, that the authors alone should have the right to lick their own butts.
04/07/09
The Authors Guild had also better watch out as those blind people have canes, dogs, and will steal your GF, if you aren't vigilant.
BTW, I say this as a person who helped raise a Seeing Eye puppy and also donates to blind charities.
04/07/09
04/07/09
So before you go spouting off like you know anything realize #1 every PC/Laptop comes with this feature (because of ADA)....and now the AG this is different...this is not right. SCREW THE AG AND SCREW YOU. It is people like you who would actively seek to remove rights from others because of your ignorance. You sir are a plaque and a blight on the American Dream.
/Douche
04/07/09
I absolutely disagree with the first half of your argument, HMW. It is NOT ridiculous for ANY group, special interest or otherwise, to speak up or protest about anything they so desire. That's at the heart of the concept of freedom of speech and, IMO, is our civic duty to DO so.
To the second half, it most definitely IS up to Amazon whether or not they wish to accommodate that demand. They ARE a commercial concern and can run their business anyway they desire within the law. However, the way Amazon will arrive at their decision is through considered deliberation, which includes a full hearing of public opinion.
Let the blind voice their thoughts; indeed, encourage them, and anyone else, to do so.
04/07/09
For your part, an intelligent observation marred by name calling only reduces your stance, and serves no purpose. Mr. Walrus started his statement by saying he is for the rights of those concerned, but then raised a valid question, to which he did not know the answer.
I, for one, am glad you are not a teach. Little Timmy: "Mrs. Bud-Strange, did the French-Indian War really just involve French Indians?"
Mrs. Bud-Strange: "No, you little ignorant douche, it did not."
Little Timmy: "Thanks Teach, you really set me straight!"
04/07/09
Robots Are People Too!
04/07/09
04/07/09
That is what it looks like to me.
04/07/09
04/07/09
04/07/09
In this case, unlike your bizarrely irrelevant 747 analogy, the technology already exists and, in fact, was already included in the device. It has only been disabled due to political concerns, not practical/technological concerns.
No, we do not need to bow down to the unreasonable demands of extremist groups. Do you believe that re-enabling the existing text-to-speech technology is doing that?
04/07/09
Well that makes Ebone and tjmarkham3 certified "DOUCHE BAGS"
Its not about them having a special interest and putting cost on to the AG. It is about the AG trying to claim that the simple text to speech is a performance...which it is clearly not. It is about the AG being greedy. It is about the AG trying to take away rights that the customer has. It is about the AG being "Douche BAGS" just like you two.
04/07/09
Um, no you can't. Not even close. What makes you think that?
04/07/09
As to the rest of the disagreements, you are correct that my 747 analogy is inappropriate. And you are correct that the NFB has the right to protest. And Amazon has the right to protect itself from litigation by the AG.
04/07/09
Your bigotry, however, makes me want to vomit. People are not douche bags for having opinions. You are a douche bag for whining at everyone you disagree with and acting like a 5-year old.
04/07/09
The Authors Guild had also better watch out as those blind people have canes, dogs, and will steal your GF, if you aren't vigilant.
BTW, I say this as a person who helped raise a Seeing Eye puppy and also donates to blind charities.
04/07/09
02/11/09
Might want to clean up the story a bit to clarify.
02/11/09
02/11/09