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12/24/09
12/22/09
12/22/09
12/22/09
[www.android.com]
12/22/09
12/22/09
12/22/09
It's it. Also, it's cryin', bleedin', lying on the floor, so you lay down on it and you do it some more. You've got to share it, so you dare it, then you bare it and you tear it.
12/22/09
12/22/09
12/22/09
12/22/09
12/22/09
12/22/09
12/22/09
12/21/09
12/21/09
Revenue at a rate of 12MM a year for a young small tech startup is great, even after taking out whatever Apple's margin is. The marginal cost of each extra unit sold is really small, so their margin per unit gets higher and higher the more they sell.
This is especially true when you think about the fact that most tech startups don't recoup their initial investments (servers, computers, software, leases) for a lonnnnng time.
I generally don't like the iPhone and would probably never pay a dime for apps, but you gotta give these guys some props.
12/21/09
You do realize $700k/month in income goes a long way when the average salary of each employee is likely around $50k which comes out to $84k/month in payroll. Add in another $100k in additional expenses (insurance, technology, office space, etc) and you're still in profit over $500k/month. I'm not sure what planet you're from but that's not only wild and more than 99% of ALL businesses make but it's also outstanding for a company that started from selling iphone games.
12/21/09
First of all - people saying that $1M/mo = $50k/mo per person... well that's ridiculous. they know nothing about business.
However, let's look at what costs a company like that would really even incur. The only initial disbursements they'd really have would be for:
*computers to develop on,
*iPod Touch and/or iPhones,
*developer licensing fees (minimal)
*business licensing fees
*dues to record companies, etc. (moderate)
*Maybe some office space (optional even, at this size with this type of company - 20 ppl could work from home and collaborate as necessary)
*Advertising (can be pretty costly - though with these Apps, Apple has seemed pretty eager to show them off)
there's probably lots of other stuff I'm leaving out... but most of all these costs are one-time startup costs, and the rest are fixed period costs (that don't go up on a per-unit-sold basis). Also, the direct labor involved is minimal, and pretty much limited to the initial development of the Apps. Direct materials are, well, zero.
The point is this. In the business world, this is a business that requires ridiculously little initial capital to start, and the business is ridiculously inexpensive to run and maintain. The per-unit contribution margin ratio (purely profitable percentage of sales revenue) is ridiculously high, and growing as more units sell.
Now if you're an employee for this company, you're getting paid ridiculously well for pretty much only having to initially conceive, design, and code a few iPhone apps... then provide minor updates here and then, perhaps answer emails (if that 20-employee number doesn't already include designated customer support people) etc. And let's say you're only (ha, only) getting paid $100k a year to do that. That's dang good for a fairly simple programmer job. Also, you could most likely have a whole other full-time career elsewhere, and just do this on the side. Bottom line, you're doing well.
Now, from the business' perspective. $100,000/yr per employee is less than $200k/month combined for all 20 employees out of the $1M/mo in sales revenue - that's around 16% of total monthly sales revenue going towards salaries... and that 16% can provide a payout of around $10k a month to employees. now let's double that. $200k per year per employee Even at 33% of sales revenue going towards employees... a pretty high number... you're still raking in a ton of money in profits for the company - especially considering the fact that your other fixed period and overhead costs will pretty much all go down after the initial costs at the time of business inception, and that your variable costs (the amount it costs to produce your apps - per app sold) are plummeting like crazy as sales volume increases....
Okay well... I'm no business expert, in fact I just finished my first Accounting course ever, but I feel like this has been a pretty reasonable effort at analyzing this business realistically. Hopefully anyone who has read this far will have gotten the point: this is a profitable business. To say otherwise is to speak in ignorance.
12/21/09
12/21/09
To develop for the iPhone, you can buy an iPod Touch ($200) and a Mac Mini ($600).
It's a lot cheaper developing for the iPhone.
12/21/09
12/21/09
Plus the iPhones feature set differs from that of the iTouch so if you wanted to do any proper development using the camera (for example) you'd still need an iPhone. Also I think you're seriously exaggerating the price of those contracts, even some of the most expensive contracts don't fall in excess of $1000.
I want to get a Droid (Milestone in the UK) when my contract is up if I can get one for a reasonable enough price.
Also it isn't really "cheaper" when you have to buy a $600 computer to develop for a $200 platform. Fair enough if you already own a Mac but for everyone else it's just not worthwhile.
12/21/09
12/21/09
I keep meaning to have a mess about with the SDK when I get around to it but I'll probably be more interested when I have a platform to test it on.
12/21/09
So that's at least another $500. Even if you can get a phone contract as low at $1000. You're still looking at the following:
$1000 for development phone.
$500 for a PC
versus
$600 for Mac
$200 for iPod Touch
That's $1500 versus $800.
Even without the PC, it's still cheaper to develop for the iPhone ($1000 versus $800), but yeah, the camera app and possibly GPS are the possible exception. Of course, if you're developing a GPS app, you probably have money already.
12/21/09
I'm a programmer with a full time job right now and a university degree to finish next year. I have no intention of entering in to full time commercial development for the iPhone and therefore the investment of buying a new computer (that I don't particularly want) for such a purpose is simply not worthwhile. That isn't to say that I wouldn't like to give it a go and knock out a few apps as a learning experience or even to try and make a little money on the side. Hence why I expressed that it's a shame that Apple locked it to OSX despite purporting that the App market is "open" (even though that only rings true for Mac owners) .
12/21/09
Would you expect Apple to provide you a Windows SDK to develop for a Mac?
If you want to develop for the iPhone, you buy a Mac, which runs the same operating system. That's how it works. So stop crying about it.
12/21/09
The difference is that if you're even considering development you're going to have (or have access to) a computer already. Considering that the majority of computers are PCs rather than Macs it's significantly more likely your average developer will own a PC. While you can develop for Android on both PC and Mac the same doesn't ring true of the iPhone. Hence if you have a computer already (likely) and it's not a Mac (also likely) you still have to invest a significant amount simply for the development tools.
I still think you're overestimating contract costs, an iPhone on contract in the UK is just about USD$672 and a decent enough Android phone (HTC hero) is a bit less than that too. If you already have a computer then a phone (whether it be an iPhone or Android handset) to develop on would cost about as much as the computer you're suggesting to buy to develop for (plus the additional $200 investment for the development platform).
Unless you already have a Mac, don't have a computer at all or are planning on buying a Mac already it's just not as cost effective as developing for Android.
12/21/09
12/21/09
This is what I'm talking about, locking the SDK to OSX was just a bad move on their part. Unless you're very serious about developing for the iPhone or you already own a Mac it isn't going to motivate anyone into buying a Mac specifically for that purpose. And it is a shame, the app store could be even bigger if they didn't do this. It's just a poor move on Apples part to try and motivate sales of their other hardware.
It wouldn't be so bad if there was an easy way to get OSX on a PC a la boot camp (which is what allows Mac users easy access to all Windows specific tools) but that isn't even the case.
Also <3 Visual Studio.
12/21/09
Right, because the App Store is SO SMALL right now.
/s
You are not entitled to get everything free or cheap in this world just because you want it that way.
There are programmers developing games for consoles, who have to pay $2000 for a dev kit and that's after companies like Sony and Nintendo have lowered the price.
Playstation developers used to have to pay $20,000 to get a dev kit from Sony, so forgive me if I don't feel sorry for you guys. If you can't buy the tools, then maybe you shouldn't be programming. Those are the breaks. If you want to develop for a platform, buy their stuff. If you're not willing to do that, then shut up, but Apple doesn't owe you a SDK on your platform of choice.
12/21/09
I can see your point to some extent, but I feel that you and the OP are arguing different things. He's simply saying it would be nice for casual PC coders to be able to just pick up and run with a readily-available SDK for their machine, and he's suggesting that if this were possible, there would probably be a few more apps on the market (not that it really needs them, but the more people cranking them out, the better).
You, on the other hand, seem to believe he's just a freeloading, lazy sack who wants Apple to personally deliver a PC SDK to him on a golden hard drive while fanning his balls and feeding him grapes, and you're somehow comparing the casual iPhone developers with people developing for the PS (which is about the time you completely lost me).
I'm not exactly sure where your vehemence is coming from, but I'd suggest you either switch to decaf, or alternately, find a stronger brew. Regardless, the irrational need to defend Apple that just radiates from some people is one of the many things that drove me to finally switch to Android. Well, that, and I wanted a phone that could actually, you know, make calls.
12/21/09
Also you fail to realise one key difference between developing for a console and developing for something like Android or iPhone. Consoles are a closed platform, you have to pay to enter that market and it's still at the discretion of the platform maker. Basically only serious commercial companies need apply. The app store (on both android and iPhone) however is purported as a free open market of which there isn't the same level of control over as say the console market.
And hey did I ever say I was entitled to a Windows SDK? Did I say Apple owes me one? No. I said that it's a damn shame that they don't and it's probably a poor move on their part. I don't feel that they should provide some way of running the SDK outside of OSX (though I would definitely appreciate it if they did) but I'm damn well entitled to feel annoyed that there isn't one.
Also I can buy the tools, I just spent about £950 on a new PC. However I have no desire to buy a Mac as they don't suit my computer needs. If you think I shouldn't be programming because I don't want to buy a Mac then that's a joke. 90% (at least) of development work for any platform is done on a PC (whether it be running Windows or Linux).
Anyway I see you've resorted to typical fanboy level insults now so I'll try and leave it at that.
12/21/09
Damn skippy.
12/21/09
You jumped right into the Apple is "overpriced" mantra and just went with it, but without thinking that someone here would challenge you.
So just so we're clear, anyone reading this will see that you're full of shit. It costs $800 to develop for the iPhone, so spin that as many ways as you like, it's still a lot cheaper than almost every other platform.
12/21/09
Please go read the comment by ThePriceOfEggsInMalta, you're still getting the entirely wrong end of the stick.
I fail to even see how you're reading your points into what I've been saying. At what point did I go into the whole "Apple is overpriced" mantra that you claim I did? I haven't once made a point about how Macs are overpriced. The problem is you seem to be getting the mistaken idea that I'm only talking about overall cost, I'm not. I'm talking about additional expenditure. Also while we're on this subject of claiming things are overpriced you quite blatantly made the frankly ridiculous claim that Android handsets cost a ludicrous $2000 a year. Hypocritical much?
Also if you want to discuss overall cost you could still buy a reasonable development PC and an android handset for the same cost as a Mac + iPhone so I don't know where you're getting this a "lot cheaper" bit from.
Come back when you decide you actually want to think about what's being said rather than going into default fanboy defensive mode.
12/21/09
12/21/09
Requirements to develop for Android are as follows:
Any computer (if you're a developer of any kind, you already own one that will work)
Free download of Linux (or use the Windows or OSX installation you were already using)
Free download of Eclipse IDE
Free download of SDK
Free emulator for testing
$25 to register for the Market
If you really want to test on a physical device you can buy one direct from Google for $400 with no contract. Connect it to WiFi and you have yourself a much better testing platform than the iPod Touch could ever be, since you get all the hardware like Camera, Compass, and GPS so you're not limited in what kind of program you can make. Plus, it's unlocked and ready to drop in any SIM card for testing apps that use Phone or SMS features.
12/21/09
12/21/09
12/21/09
12/21/09
Not to mention the iPhone SDK also has an emulator bundled with it.
12/21/09
and i hear ya, but the whole complaint about being able to start a business for less than 2K is falling on deaf ears.
12/21/09
I don't recall mentioning wanting to start a business. I'm more interested in doing some casual development work. In fact despite the success stories I think that's a bad idea to have a commercial venture invested solely in the app store. It's simply too volatile and high risk. For indy devs that just want to do a bit on the side and companies that have their bases covered elsewhere though it's perfect. I wouldn't quit my day job to work on it though unless I already had a successful app or series of apps in place. Even then I'd still be worried about the potential risks of investing my sole business into such an open market.
12/21/09
to sum up, if you're ideas aren't worth the the price of a computer then you're right to stay out.
apologize for sounding mean there but thats what it comes down to.
the real power and excitement of the app store is for the individuals, a dev team of 2 people can do a lot. even with a part time, casual work pace.
12/21/09
I fail to understand why a lot of people in this are getting so uptight and defensive about nothing. I expressed that it was a shame that Apple chose to lock developers without a Mac out of app development. This rings doubly true with your comment about the power and excitement being for individuals. There's a lot of untapped development potential out there because the SDK is locked to such a closed platform. Also you have to realise that to an individual the price of a computer is a lot more significant than the price of a computer to a company.
While Apple may gain some sales from keeping the SDK OSX only they're also driving a lot of potential iPhone developers to work on Android instead. Given the choice I'd rather give development a go on iPhone as I own an iPod Touch. Instead though I'm likely just going to toy with the Android SDK.
12/21/09
couple of interpretations to getting uptight.
one is that there is absolutely no need for more iphone developers. too many as it is creating junk because its too easy.
so hearing a complaint about barrier of entry strikes people as odd.
other is that developers will go where they think they can make money, and if its a business decision a 2K price tag is nothing. if you don't think you can make back 2k with a business, that should tell you to stop right there.
as well, money is a bit subjective, i think you mention being a student. 2k may be a lot to you, was when i was a student. but to someone who has been working a fair amount of time, its not that big of a deal.
you'll need to save for marketing anyhow. telling people about your product, letting the world know it exists. for that students are already cut out of the picture.
12/21/09
See you're just see-sawing now. First you talk of individual devs or small teams that can do wonders with a casual part time pace. Now you're talking about it from a business point of view. They're two very different perspectives to look at the app store from. Yes it's all well and good to buy a Mac if you're approaching it from a business angle. As an individual though? It's hard to justify that kind of expenditure on entering into such a volatile and unpredictable market if you're not prepared to put a full time development effort in. From a casual development angle it's too high risk. And it is a shame that Apple have put that barrier in place as a lot of the most interesting and creative apps come from independent developers working in their spare time.
All I'm trying to express is that it's a shame Apple limited the iPhone SDK to OSX. What I don't understand is some of the people in this thread seem to be reading what I'm writing as some form of Apple bashing and getting all uppity about it.
12/21/09
one from individual's side one from a money making venture side.
main point being the barrier of entry is very low. as suggested by the shear amount of dev work being done.
Apple in no way needs you (or me) to jump aboard.
last bit of my commentary was telling you money is subjective, while it may be a high cost to you, individuals who have been working a fair amount of time in a field partial to iphone dev, the cost of buying a mac is insignificant.
the numbers are speaking for themselves, there is a lot going on. no matter what anecdotal evidence we can bring up.
12/21/09
with all the development and 1000s of apps out there, why is it a shame that we don't have more from people who don't believe in their ideas enough to even invest in a new computer?
12/21/09
Also, I couldn't help but think that all those people who say that the only reason people don't often get viruses (& malware & spyware, etc) on Macs is cuz it's not worth developers' time to write them for Macs due to the small marketshare (and they're right, by the way)... should also take into account that anyone looking to "dabble" in writing a virus for OS X would have to have an OS X system. so that's a pretty good preventative factor. Most people who write viruses would start dabbling on Windows or Linux, then become proficient enough there that they're unlikely to randomly decide to switch to OS X.
Just some more food for thought on the already ridiculously long post.
12/21/09
12/21/09
or, if your idea is worth something, invest in it.
or take one of the many other avenues to get your idea out.
12/21/09
So I'm confused as to why you're a developer, of any kind, in the first place.
If you think you have a good idea for the App Store which will sell well (more than $600 in profits to you, plus some profit amount above that for your time), why wouldn't you do it?
12/21/09
Speaking as a Mac guy, Odin, you have my sympathies for your frustrations with this one. It's rare to see an initial comment so misunderstood. I think we can oficially put this one in the "Epic" bin.
Shows what happens when you voice something as controvertial and crazy as, "Shame you need something running OSX to develop for it." How DARE you, sir! I mean REALLY! Next, you'll no doubt be promoting eating orphans, smoking rolled up Monet's or watching Fox News!
Seriously, I think you've done more than most would to explain your self in a coherent, reasonable and adult way. I'm am stunned at the reactions of some to what I think was a reasonable point of view.
As an aside, you know what you need to do? Find a girlfriend with a Mac. If you already have a girlfriend, convince her to get a Mac. Then you can borrow it when she's not looking! :-)
12/21/09
I was a little disappointed that you didn't slide the word 'fucktard' in there somewhere. Regardless, your assessment of clak was spot on. Bravo.
12/21/09
It seems like starred commenter status is too easy to come by for the wrong people now.
12/22/09
I'm sorry you were offended by the use of the word 'fucktard'. And, if instead, to what you take offense is the expression of support for the person who didn't sugar coat his assessment of someone's tone and contribution to the thread while coming to the defense of a well behaved and intentioned commenter, then I am sorry. I cannot apologize for that.
My star predates the changes to the comment system.
12/22/09
You like many other people in this thread are looking at the app store from a purely business point of view. As a developer, I don't see it that way in fact I've already commented on how I think its too risky a market to invest in full time. I already do development as a full time job, I'm not looking to make another job out of it. I got into programming though because I find it pretty enjoyable.
When I look at the app store I see a ready made distribution system coupled with an interesting platform. I'd like to approach it as a fun side project to test some ideas as well as dabble in mobile and game development. I probably wouldn't even charge for my apps unless I personally thought they were worth buying, hell I probably wouldn't publish them unless I thought other people might enjoy them (and no I don't think other people enjoy fart apps).
12/22/09
Thank you. It's people like you that remind me that not everyone using a Mac is a mindless fanboy. When I return to University I'm going to try and hijack the Mac labs if I have any spare time. That is if they haven't shut them down by then.
12/22/09
And now, godammit, I probably added even more to this worthless exchange.
EDITORS! WRITERS! COMMENT NAZIS! BE MORE SELECTIVE ABOUT YOUR STARRED COMMENTERS OR BRING BACK THE OLD SYSTEM! IT'S OK TO BAN STUPID PEOPLE.
Whew.
12/22/09
So you whine about how you wanted to read more on-topic comments while going on a completely off topic rant about the commenting system. Explain to me how your hypocritical tirade is any better than the discussion that at least had relevance to the article.
Also while it may not have been your intention whining about the selection of star commenter's is going to make people think you're just jealous that you don't have one. Being starred isn't especially special considering the amount of them floating around and all it really means is we can see 10x as much spam as everyone else. So if you're going to launch a complaint against another commenter try not to focus on that shiny gold sticker, you just come off as annoyed that you don't have one.
12/22/09
12/21/09
That's much better than this:
Michael Bolton: You think the pet rock was a really great idea?
Tom Smykowski: Sure it was. The guy made a million dollars. You know, I had an idea like that once. A long time ago.
Peter Gibbons: Really, what was it, Tom?
Tom Smykowski: Well, all right. It was a "Jump to Conclusions" mat. You see, it would be this mat that you would put on the floor, and it would have different conclusions written on it that you could jump to.
12/21/09
12/21/09
Not that I have anything against policemen- just not a lot of people wear hats nowadays.
12/21/09
I have pooped there !
(it's a gold plated bathroom in a jewelry store)
at first I thought the gold was going to be cold, but it was quite nice and room temperature.
12/21/09
12/21/09
I'm not going to be able to eat chocolate for a while, thanks.
12/21/09
12/10/09
12/10/09
12/10/09
The thing is I get fed up over hype after a while but this Apple tablet business on Giz really takes the cake. They're just overhyping something that doesn't even has a confirmed existance. If I was to be generous I'd describe the Apple tablets existance as "likely" at the very very most. Right now though I think "fictional" is a better description for it. I can understand buzzing for a product you really really want to be good but I just can't get behind hyping something that isn't even tangible. It's like hyping up a flying train because some drunk guy said that he might be working on one.
Plus the fact that even if/when this is actually announced we're going to have to put up with months and months of Giz articles proclaiming it to be the second coming of Christ. I mean as if it wasn't enough reading about how wonderful it's going to be before it's release we have to get pre-announcment pre-hype. I'm honestly at the point where I want it to fail hard, I want it to be the biggest turd of a gadget released this century just to render all this insanely irritating hype bullshit.
I can get behind looking forward to something and wanting to know all about it and hoping it'll be every bit as awesome as you think it will be. But for gods sake save it for REAL things, Giz has turned the Apple tablet from something I might have been interested in to something I now loathe and will never buy just on principle.
12/10/09
12/09/09
Maybe for the tablet or baked in background shadowing?
12/09/09
12/09/09
*upon tablet's release (Apple releases 10" tablet computer, lovingly dubbed the MacTab, and sports a 1.8GHz Core 2Duo ULV processor and NVidia 9400 graphic, running 10.6 Snow Leopard)
Holy shit! I'll buy three!
12/09/09
12/09/09
12/10/09
12/09/09
12/09/09
12/09/09
12/09/09
12/09/09
12/09/09