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Chris Jacob
Wow Lam, this article is a beautiful piece of prose-news. Your subtitle could be "Hot Electric Metal Encased in a Sphere of Glass: An Ode to Tungsten". I love it when you guys romanticize gadgetry. I'll never think of lightbulbs the same way again!
We just light stuff on fire around the office whenever we need a little light.
Now that no one prints emails to read anymore, we are just groping around most of the time. It has led to some uncomfortable lectures around "harassment"...but we are getting off-topic.
I like traditional light bulbs too. I know LEDs are currently able to light a room, brightly, without burning themselves out, because you can buy arrays of P4 and P7 LED emitters that are spec'ed to do so - it's just a matter of time before they trickle out into mass produced products.
I hate CFL bulbs - their form factor doesn't work on anything that counts on the shape of a light bulb (for example, lamps with a shade that clips to the bulb), the light is harsh, and does technically flicker - if your eyes are spasming from looking at computer screens under old fluorescent tubes all day, a CFL is all it takes to set them off again. What's worse is they usually buzz, resonate, or even whine due to the necessary cheap integrated power adapters (though if a fixture was built from the ground up with this in mind and all you had to plug in was the tube, this could be solved...)
I'm waiting for an LED solution, as colour temperature can be adjusted, and not every light has to give off the freaky blue-yellow white that is common in white LEDs (you can combine red, green, and blue for example for much nicer light - and then tune it to the colour you want.) There will still be the issue of cheap integrated power adapters though, and for that all I can say is... don't cheap out and get the cheapest alternative lighting you can, or you may well have something to complain about... hopefully there will be a line nice enough to actually use in a house, even if it may cost $60 per bulb... it also shouldn't cost that much as some scientists have found a way to grow the gallium nitride crystals on a substrate of silicon instead of the traditional sapphire.
@The5thElephant: I thought of that when I was rummaging around in the garage attic about 5:30 one afternoon, this past weekend, and I dropped my flashlight on the floor below. I was grateful for LED technology when the damned thing bounced and kept lighting the floor where it fell. I don't miss the old days when it comes to flashlight technology.
@Chip Skylark of Space: I completely forgot about that part too! Damn bulbs and my odd propensity for shaking flashlights vigorously (it lights up more area while moving fast enough that your brain stitches the whole scene together!).
Needless to say I have thrown a few flashlights in my day.
I say fuck all these green lights. If I can afford to pay more per month for electricity, shouldn't it be my choice what lights I want to install in my house? The sickly glow of those damned silly straw bulbs reminds me of a morgue, and I'll be damned if I'm going to turn my home into a sterile industrial zone just to make Al fucking Gore feel better about himself.
@Cash907Censored: Because what you pay per month for electricity does not include the full cost to society for your consuming that electricity. Most of the electricity in the world is still produced using COAL and GAS. The methods for producing electricity from either are NOT efficient and generally damage the environment.
Let's say every watt-hour of power that you consume costs $x. That amount includes the cost to produce that energy plus 'some' profit that's held by the electric company. No where in that cost do you pay the $y that are required to suck the smog produced in producing that electricity. Neither do you pay any amount toward cleaning up the environment in still other important ways.
Thus, even if you can afford to pay the bill that you currently get, you probably couldn't afford to pay the TRUE cost for that energy.
I'll use an example to make my point clear. A couple years ago, back when gas was around $2/gallon (in the US) there was a study done. This study was done by economists with no real bias. They measured the external cost incurred by society for every gallon of gas burned at the time. They calculated that for every $2 gallon of gas burned it cost society $8 to clean up the resulting mess. You read that right. Back when gas cost $2/gallon, we should have been paying $10/gallon.
This analysis was for the US, but most countries of the world (if not all) don't clean up their environmental footprint and neither do they charge the appropriate fees.
Assuming the ratio 'works' for electricity (and it's very likely it does), could you afford to pay FOUR TIMES your current electric bill? If you can answer that with a straight face, then go ahead and continue down that path. But keep in mind that you'd have to keep three times your monthly electric bill in a savings bank for when you finally have to pay th . e piper
@ian.nai: blah blah blah cost to society blah blah. Your analysis is based on a set of assumptions that only takes into account a very small set of variables- none of which address cash907censored's point, which is that he should be able to buy the bulbs he wants. Everything, EVERYTHING we do has a cost to society. If you believe lightbulbs are bad and you stop using them, fine. Others believe mohammed is the prophet of Allah, fine. But don't you fucking tell me that i'm somehow wrong because I like incandescent bulbs. Cfls contain mercury and give off terrible light. LEDs are still too expensive. This type of nanny statist mumbo jumbo is really starting to piss me off.
@chauncy that billups: THIS! THIS! Not only is this push for the dubious benefits of CFLs to stop a nonexistent problem (global warming) a huge environmental liability in that it takes attention off of REAL problems, it also damages American industry (there are no ENERGY STAR CFLs produced in the US) and, if the pleas of many for government mandates are heeded (which they have been and will be in the future), they reduce our personal freedoms and erode our rights!
@chauncy that billups: Wrong. Also, I'll have you note that I'm not the one bringing 'heat' to the conversation. No where in my post did I use the word "fuck" and yet you both have. For that alone I should just ignore your post, but blatant ignorance requires attention.
I was explaining the results of an academic article written by experts in the field of environmental economics. To discount the results found by researchers such as you have would set all of humanity back a hundred years. I'm completely serious about this. In no way is it appropriate to just outrightly discount the work of a whole discipline. To do so is like saying a clockmaker has no idea how to make a clock. It's simple lunacy.
Further, I'm not saying he can't buy whatever he wants with his money. That's the great thing of money. Once two people come to a price, so be it. The only problem is that some goods damage the environment in ways that society at some point must pay. We already 'pay' for increased smog levels with acid rain, lowered overall air quality, increased incidents of asthma, and so many other nasties. It's impossible to say that all of those factors are free to fix.
If you still believe that humankind is powerless over 'nature' consider the story of DDT. DDT was long used as a pesticide against mosquitoes to stop the spread of malaria. Well, that went on for a while until people (scientists) realized it was making the shells of bird eggs thin. The thin eggs lead to drastically decreasing bird populations. Had DDTs continued to be used we would have lost many bird species.
Of note, farmers used DDTs as a pesticide. To further establish my point, no doubt the cost of purchasing and distributing DDTs was included in the prices of those farmers' goods. What couldn't be included in the prices of those goods (because no farmer was charged) was the cost to society of the deaths of birds.
Look, what I'm not saying is that ye olde' light bulb is evil and should be outlawed. It shouldn't. But the market doesn't reward energy efficiency like it rewards economic efficiency. For that reason, correcting the market price for the added shadow costs of these older technologies SHOULD happen. If that were the case then society could use normal market processes to decide just how much environmental damage it will tolerate.
@Gary_7vn: Oh, I'm sorry... Am *I* the one flying around on a goddamned private jet, and burning through more energy with my single home in a month then a large neighborhood does in an entire year, all while lecturing others on their wasteful habits? No, I'm just a guy who would like to have his living space lit in full spectrum warm light that doesn't make me feel like I'm trapped in that nuthouse from "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," and is willing to pay 20 bucks more a month for that luxury. But hey, fuck me and my selfish ways right?
@ian.nai: Are you really bringing DDT into this? There are many prominent scientists, philanthropists and others who absolutely reject the ban on DDT. I will gladly kill millions of birds in order to save humans from malaria.
@ian.nai: If it takes you six paragraphs to say absolutely nothing at all, that's pretty pathetic Ian. Considering the energy you burnt writing it, it's damn wasteful too.
Congratulations, you've reached epic fail status.
I think kerosene lamps are much more beautiful than incandescent light bulbs. Nothing beats the natural warmth, smell and carbon monoxide-induced delirium that result from the burning of distilled dinosaur juices in my living room. Sure, kerosene lamps are many times less efficient than light bulbs, but come on, I get a boner just talking about them.
A well-written article, but I simply can't disagree more with one of the main points: Incandescent lights are not beautiful.
At least, they aren't more natural. At best, they're an approximation of fire, man's most primitive artificial light source (artificial in the sense that we harnessed it and used it for light), but they are not any more or less artificial than LEDs. If you want to talk color temperature and lighting angles- If anything, LEDs will actually bring us closer to "natural" light. There's way more that can be done with LEDs in terms of fixtures and integration into our homes and workplaces that optimize the effect lighting has on our lives (and it IS a big effect)
Certainly LEDs aren't identical to the Sun's output in terms of range of color, but they provide far more of the range than tungsten bulbs do.
I think the problem here is that everyone thinks LED white is the same as fluorescent white. I don't have evidence to back this up, but I am assuming LED white-light has a broader color spectrum than fluorescent white. This would make everything look richer and more detailed, despite still being white light (though I agree, for the home I prefer warmer light temperatures, with cooler temperatures for work).
@The5thElephant: Most white LEDs are actually blue LEDs with a phosphor that fluoresces yellow, so it's little wonder things look so dead under them - on a spectrograph it's basically a peak of blue and a peak of yellow, surrounded by a void.
They can do better colour by mixing red, green, and blue - in which case you have three peaks - a very specific red, very specific green, and very specific blue, but it is a big improvement over blue-yellow.
So LEDs CAN, at best, provide a much nicer more usable spectrum than fluorescents (ultraviolet, fluoresced to "white"), but they do not (I won't say can not...) provide nearly the same spectral range as an incandescent.
@hjustin93: well, no. Fire is a chemical reaction involving oxidization of a combustible substance, none of which contribute (for all intents and purposes) in the sun - it's basically a giant, glowing fusion reactor. Some burning things approximate part of the visible spectrum portion of the sun's light, but that's neither here nor there.
@The5thElephant: It's tough to say... the problem is that like lasers, they tend to emit very specific frequencies - you could possibly make the best reproduction you could of a colour palette out of a whole array of LED emitters? That's basically an extension of the RGB white LED idea... I'm actually no chemical/optical/electronics engineer, but just someone with a background in science who finds this stuff interesting.
This article has the graphs I'd been talking about and a lot more background information: [en.wikipedia.org]
This one calls itself full spectrum, but is more like a bit of 4 bands mixed across the spectrum: [www2.electronicproducts.com]
About 40% down, this article has a nice overlaid graph of the spectra of different light sources: [www.olympusmicro.com]
As you can see incandescent is much more inclusive and smoother transitioning, but also contains far less blue, and leans heavily toward reds - it's not true white, but it has a bit of most (or all?) of the visible spectrum, and is generally the benchmark for home lighting, so even with a perfectly white light source most people would probably say it made their home look strange.
This page has a nice graph of a sample from a CFL bulb, though like LEDs, they may vary based on how they're made - they basically specifically target colours they want it to emit. [motls.blogspot.com]
@lpranal: I agree, it's just what people are used to. If Edison had invented a pink light, they'd all be whinging about teh lovely lovely pink cast on their cat's bum.
@fuchikoma: Well said. I think the end result will be a smooth (no peaks or vallleys) broad spectrum LED that is actually tuneable so that you can alter the mood of your house lighting on demand. Everything else is just a technology half step to getting there. I always imaging things to their ultimate and realize that technology is just a gradual climb on that path. Take TVs for example; the ultimate source for a "moving picture with sound" would be a paper thin device of desired size that easily hangs anywhere, whala, years later we have LCDs getting thinner and thinner...
@brianmi40: I have hope for quantum dot LEDs, but they work on fluorescence, so I think they still tend to exhibit the two peaks somewhat. They do have some that are a bit yellower for indoor lighting though, as the colors can be tuned.
Nice writing BLam. It's almost like the Tube vs. Solid State argument for guitar amps. As a tube guy, I refuse to go with the LED lightbulbs because I feel like I am walking into a bug light when entering the front door. Plus, I usually go for 40 watts or less and the new bulbs are just too bright. I don't care if it last longer, it's the kind of light that attracts me.
Wow, I almost did not believe my eyes. It's like ten million fireflies are lighting up the world as I fall asleep. Because they fill the open air, and leave teardrops everywhere. You may think me rude, but I just loaded the images and stared.
11/30/09
LED FTW
11/30/09
11/30/09
Now that no one prints emails to read anymore, we are just groping around most of the time. It has led to some uncomfortable lectures around "harassment"...but we are getting off-topic.
11/30/09
11/30/09
11/30/09
I hate CFL bulbs - their form factor doesn't work on anything that counts on the shape of a light bulb (for example, lamps with a shade that clips to the bulb), the light is harsh, and does technically flicker - if your eyes are spasming from looking at computer screens under old fluorescent tubes all day, a CFL is all it takes to set them off again. What's worse is they usually buzz, resonate, or even whine due to the necessary cheap integrated power adapters (though if a fixture was built from the ground up with this in mind and all you had to plug in was the tube, this could be solved...)
I'm waiting for an LED solution, as colour temperature can be adjusted, and not every light has to give off the freaky blue-yellow white that is common in white LEDs (you can combine red, green, and blue for example for much nicer light - and then tune it to the colour you want.) There will still be the issue of cheap integrated power adapters though, and for that all I can say is... don't cheap out and get the cheapest alternative lighting you can, or you may well have something to complain about... hopefully there will be a line nice enough to actually use in a house, even if it may cost $60 per bulb... it also shouldn't cost that much as some scientists have found a way to grow the gallium nitride crystals on a substrate of silicon instead of the traditional sapphire.
11/30/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
Needless to say I have thrown a few flashlights in my day.
11/30/09
11/30/09
Let's say every watt-hour of power that you consume costs $x. That amount includes the cost to produce that energy plus 'some' profit that's held by the electric company. No where in that cost do you pay the $y that are required to suck the smog produced in producing that electricity. Neither do you pay any amount toward cleaning up the environment in still other important ways.
Thus, even if you can afford to pay the bill that you currently get, you probably couldn't afford to pay the TRUE cost for that energy.
I'll use an example to make my point clear. A couple years ago, back when gas was around $2/gallon (in the US) there was a study done. This study was done by economists with no real bias. They measured the external cost incurred by society for every gallon of gas burned at the time. They calculated that for every $2 gallon of gas burned it cost society $8 to clean up the resulting mess. You read that right. Back when gas cost $2/gallon, we should have been paying $10/gallon.
This analysis was for the US, but most countries of the world (if not all) don't clean up their environmental footprint and neither do they charge the appropriate fees.
Assuming the ratio 'works' for electricity (and it's very likely it does), could you afford to pay FOUR TIMES your current electric bill? If you can answer that with a straight face, then go ahead and continue down that path. But keep in mind that you'd have to keep three times your monthly electric bill in a savings bank for when you finally have to pay th . e piper
11/30/09
11/30/09
11/30/09
I was explaining the results of an academic article written by experts in the field of environmental economics. To discount the results found by researchers such as you have would set all of humanity back a hundred years. I'm completely serious about this. In no way is it appropriate to just outrightly discount the work of a whole discipline. To do so is like saying a clockmaker has no idea how to make a clock. It's simple lunacy.
Further, I'm not saying he can't buy whatever he wants with his money. That's the great thing of money. Once two people come to a price, so be it. The only problem is that some goods damage the environment in ways that society at some point must pay. We already 'pay' for increased smog levels with acid rain, lowered overall air quality, increased incidents of asthma, and so many other nasties. It's impossible to say that all of those factors are free to fix.
If you still believe that humankind is powerless over 'nature' consider the story of DDT. DDT was long used as a pesticide against mosquitoes to stop the spread of malaria. Well, that went on for a while until people (scientists) realized it was making the shells of bird eggs thin. The thin eggs lead to drastically decreasing bird populations. Had DDTs continued to be used we would have lost many bird species.
Of note, farmers used DDTs as a pesticide. To further establish my point, no doubt the cost of purchasing and distributing DDTs was included in the prices of those farmers' goods. What couldn't be included in the prices of those goods (because no farmer was charged) was the cost to society of the deaths of birds.
Look, what I'm not saying is that ye olde' light bulb is evil and should be outlawed. It shouldn't. But the market doesn't reward energy efficiency like it rewards economic efficiency. For that reason, correcting the market price for the added shadow costs of these older technologies SHOULD happen. If that were the case then society could use normal market processes to decide just how much environmental damage it will tolerate.
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
Congratulations, you've reached epic fail status.
12/01/09
x^a-1 * y^b-1 * (1-x-y)^c-1
11/30/09
11/30/09
11/30/09
At least, they aren't more natural. At best, they're an approximation of fire, man's most primitive artificial light source (artificial in the sense that we harnessed it and used it for light), but they are not any more or less artificial than LEDs. If you want to talk color temperature and lighting angles- If anything, LEDs will actually bring us closer to "natural" light. There's way more that can be done with LEDs in terms of fixtures and integration into our homes and workplaces that optimize the effect lighting has on our lives (and it IS a big effect)
11/30/09
11/30/09
Certainly LEDs aren't identical to the Sun's output in terms of range of color, but they provide far more of the range than tungsten bulbs do.
I think the problem here is that everyone thinks LED white is the same as fluorescent white. I don't have evidence to back this up, but I am assuming LED white-light has a broader color spectrum than fluorescent white. This would make everything look richer and more detailed, despite still being white light (though I agree, for the home I prefer warmer light temperatures, with cooler temperatures for work).
11/30/09
They can do better colour by mixing red, green, and blue - in which case you have three peaks - a very specific red, very specific green, and very specific blue, but it is a big improvement over blue-yellow.
So LEDs CAN, at best, provide a much nicer more usable spectrum than fluorescents (ultraviolet, fluoresced to "white"), but they do not (I won't say can not...) provide nearly the same spectral range as an incandescent.
11/30/09
11/30/09
11/30/09
This article has the graphs I'd been talking about and a lot more background information:
[en.wikipedia.org]
This one calls itself full spectrum, but is more like a bit of 4 bands mixed across the spectrum:
[www2.electronicproducts.com]
About 40% down, this article has a nice overlaid graph of the spectra of different light sources:
[www.olympusmicro.com]
As you can see incandescent is much more inclusive and smoother transitioning, but also contains far less blue, and leans heavily toward reds - it's not true white, but it has a bit of most (or all?) of the visible spectrum, and is generally the benchmark for home lighting, so even with a perfectly white light source most people would probably say it made their home look strange.
This page has a nice graph of a sample from a CFL bulb, though like LEDs, they may vary based on how they're made - they basically specifically target colours they want it to emit.
[motls.blogspot.com]
11/30/09
You get a heart-click for the time you took linking all this.
11/30/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
11/30/09
11/30/09
Sure it's expensive now, but it will be a lot cheaper in the near future.
11/26/09
11/26/09
11/26/09
11/26/09
11/26/09
11/10/09