This isn't a solution, it's just a way to expand wars to other areas.
You do this, we do this, you try this, we try this, etc.
Let's not forget that there are tons of very competent hacker groups on all countries... if the US military starts a movement to recruit and form a "global geek squad", at the very same time there will be a movement to recruit and form geek squads in other countries, period.
But if it somehow manages to delay the nuking, it's already better than nothing.
The only problem is that it might also accelerate the process.
@Complexified: But yeah, I think it has to do with India and Pakistan blowing each other up. Georgia, for instance, is on that map. Presumably, this is due to their recent conflict with Russia, which is also on the map.
@tharden33: no, not really possible actually. most terrorist cells, for example, use anonymously purchased disposable cell phones. you would have no way of knowing which cell phones were theirs and which were other peoples, so you'd have to take down the entire cellular network to stop them from using them.
you could attack known phone numbers and network addresses, but that wouldn't cause a major enough disruption to be useful. and you'd lose the only phone numbers and network addresses you knew about reducing your chances of gathering intelligence.
cyber attacks are really only effective against fixed targets, meaning you're talking about attacking other nations which is not the primary battlefield of the future.
battles were fought before the advent of cell phones and technology networks. Somehow, I don't think this will have quite the effect they are hoping for.
@drewheyman: People traveled before cars, and yet when folks' cars break down, they tend to feel stranded, and in many cases are.
Surely, many country's military will be prepared for a breakdown in primary communications, but the fact that 200 years ago, folks used flags and smoke and one really loud guy as signals on a battlefield and I guess did ok doesn't mean that losing your phones or radios wouldn't be a severe disadvantage.
@OCEntertainment: that's only true if you're fighting force is required to be highly coordinated. this might be true of conventional warfare, but it should be pretty obvious to anyone now that guerilla warfare is the primary problem. and guerilla warfare can be waged by small independent cells quite effectively, as evidenced by our experience in Afghanistan. minimal communication provided by physical communication methods is more than enough in those situations.
@Accelerata: If we're gonna talk in theory, let's at least stick to just one. If we're dealing with an army whose primary communications are through systems we can disable remotely, they will lack something they previously had. If we're talking about people whose primary form of communication is minimal via physical means, what are we doing developing cyber offensive strategies for them?
And if we're talking about an army that both uses a high-tech cyber communications system, but in the event it's damaged or crippled, have an entire minimalist physical communications sub-system in place that can be picked up without missing a beat........
It is well known that China already has an elite hacker force, which frequently attacks and hacks pentagon and other defense systems' computer networks.
They've stolen in the neighborhood of half a trillion dollars worth of classified designs, and probably much more that the public isn't aware of.
It might be better to create a physical data disconnection from the pentagon computer networks to the outside world.
Perhaps we really SHOULD be focusing on "defense". A cyberattack strategy would be beneficial too, but the bigger problem here is American data networks being infiltrated by the Chinese.
They already have top-secret plans for the F-35, the B-2 Bomber's coolant systems...
@Nightsd01: Talk about the Chinese stealing super secret designs is pretty funny sometimes.
Looking at their military development, despite decades of supposed theft, their military has never come out with anything remotely beyond what was already expected of their level of progress.
I'm not saying that there isn't always potential for some breakthrough, but the Chinese just don't seem to have the capability to do anything special with whatever they're supposedly stealing.
@Kyang: Have you ever watched Star Wars? Having detailed information about the opponents technology can be very beneficial. It doesn't mean that the Rebel Alliance should have just build their own Death Star. Imagine that China finds a vulnerability in the F-35's targeting system that allows them to use their current old Migs without the fear of being shot down. Way more efficient use the the information if you ask me. Claiming "the Chinese just don't seem to have the capability to do anything special" just seems pretty naive to me.
@binofet: Also, modern air defense systems are extensively networked. A cyber attack that causes a section of a radar network to drop just in time for a strike fighter package to pass through would be VERY useful.
@binofet: If it's using the stolen information to exploit weaknesses, then my point still applies. I haven't seen the Chinese develop anything that has outright exploited any particular weakness in US military hardware.
But as I also said, I don't rule out any possible breakthroughs eventually.
EDIT: I know this is beside the point, but the Chinese also haven't had MiGs for a few decades now. They have some derivatives, but they're so heavily modified, they can safely be classified as completely different planes.
@Curves: You'd actually need around 2.20462262 * 10^9 ounces of prevention. One ounce of prevention only yields a pound of cure. It's a well known fact.
""The Internet is a "fearsome awesome problem" and it would have been better if it had never been invented.""
Oh and then there is this little gem from him :
"…it would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years." -David Rockefeller, Bilderberg Meeting, Germany 1991.
@svgjjc: Okay, I went to your link and read everything there. Because I like to stay informed on all sides of an issue. But there wasn't a single credible piece of information in your own source to support your implications. Sorry.
There are legitimate complaints, honest arguments, reasoned critiques, and valid fears. And then there is imaginary paranoid crack-pottery. I'm afraid this was a part of that last group.
Partisan politics aside...I don't want anyone to have a magic button that shuts ANY of my shit off. Have you read the fine print on FCC labels on just about any electronics?Liberty or Death. I don't want your free shit...and I don't want to be FORCED to pay for anyone else's "free" shit. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" No thank you. How about "Don't Tread on Me!"
"When people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." -Thomas Jefferson
I was going to throw my two cents into this debate, but then, after reading all of the comments, I realized that it would be an act of futility. Those who trust the government don't see anything wrong with this bill, while those that don't trust do. If that is no why you feel the way that you feel, then I apologize. All of us have come to our opinions through our own self-examination of the facts as we see them.
Then in the middle this forum devolved into a health care debate where anecdotal evidence was thrown around like a fact and then we were suddenly invaded by face huggers and Aliens.
Rather than throwing around my own opinions, I have a couple of questions to ask:
1) Before you decide if this bill, or any bill that grants extensions on governmental powers, is a good thing, ask if you would want a GOP president and GOP congress to have these powers (Or vice versa if you lean more conservative).
2) Is peace and security more important than liberty and Freedom?
3) Would a business without government regulation be better or worse for the population and environment?
4) Neglecting the fact that most countries in the world have price caps on medical procedures, why is the US Health Care system the most expensive?
1) Yes. Because I read it as a matter of the power to coordinate not the power to do. And I believe that the executive could have (and would have) claimed the power to do with or without this bill (regardless of political party.)
I am happy to hear it was "softened", but saying it was NOT TRUE is a lie, it was true until they changed it. Just like there was an ambiguous section of HR3200 about panels that help decide your healthcare options and one on end-of-life care that was not spelled out plainly enough until they removed it.
I still don't know that the President or any government official needs access to private networks. If its a dire threat you call the company and they pull the plug.
@Russell Lynn: If there was a massive DDoS on our network infastructure itself, coming from some botnet in Europe, the government would be able to disconnect all European connections to maintain the functionality of the US network, rather than have no networking.
I wonder how the complete psychopaths on the left (9-11 was an inside job, Bush stole 2 elections, Bush is stealing oil in Iraq, Cheney is hiding Bin Laden until days before the election) would feel if the Bush admin and the Republicans had proposed the same legislation?
@waltcoleman: (1) is both (2) is left (3) is true (4) is not one I'd heard before.
More importantly? I would have said "No shit the executive branch should be able to coordinate public and private efforts in the case of an emergency. It's their job."
Hell, I wish post-Katrina the Bush Admin had taken control and coordinated anything other than delivering trailers to the wrong place at the wrong time.
@92BuickLeSabre: If you live in the ocean you're gonna get wet.
If you choose to live in tornado alley and a tornado hits your house why should someone in a different state be forced to pay for it?
If you choose to live on a fault line and an earthquake destroys your house why should someone in a different state be forced to pay for it?
If you choose to live below sea level and water destroys your house why should someone in another state be forced to pay for it?
People know the risks and yet they still choose to live there. It should be up to the state and local levels along with charities and donations to fix the mess. Why should someone who chooses to live in a state that's above sea level be forced to pay for it?
A lot of people don't even want to move back to New Orleans, so why should I (who lives in a different state) be forced to pay for a place people don't even want to live?
Also, if "Bush is stealing oil in Iraq" is true, and he's no longer in office, but we're still in Iraq, is Obama now stealing oil from Iraq?
@Rabid Penguin: I don't really think Bush is stealing oil. I just said that to make myself giggle.
And why? Because it is consistent with my ideals of Justice, Ethics, Patriotism, Democracy, Federalism, Christianity, personal morals, humanism, decency, and what it means to be an American. We look out for each other. It's the social contract. We could abandon each other like we are Burma or China or the Sudan. Or we can take seriously that we are One Nation,Under God Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for All. One Nation. One People. It's what my founding fathers taught me. It was why they abandoned the Articles of Confederation for the Constitution. It is what my ancestors and my family fought and died for.
If you don't believe in the Social Contract, that is fine. We simply disagree about what it means to be a Citizen of a Nation.
And the rest of your little ditty (now at the top of the page) is nonsense, and you know it. The folks in government may disagree on how to interpret the Constitution, but most of them take it very, very seriously. On both sides of the aisle.
I apologize for the unusually blatant sincerity and sentimentality. It's late, and my guard is down.
@92BuickLeSabre: And you know what else? It's more efficient this way. We have a federal system for a reason. There will be fires and floods and earthquakes and hurricanes. We spread the risk and we spread the reward. We have economies of scale. It benefits none of us to have regions of the country that are poor or left behind or bankrupt. We are all stuck in this thing together, if we don't look out for each other then over time we become so stratified that we can't accomplish anything. And if you honestly believe that no safety net, no public education, no highways - none of the things that are necessary to hold us together - are important, I recommend taking a look at any one of the many countries with a truly tiny wealthy elite and a mass that has been left to fend for themselves. Let me know how well it has worked out.
@92BuickLeSabre: I was tired when I wrote that ditty too. But I thought it was humorous... but everything is funny when it's late.
I guess I believe that it's more Christian, more moral, more humane, more decent, and more American, for an individual to willingly donate his time or money to a cause rather than having the Government force him too. We do look out for each other, and we do so without the need for legislated theft.
We are citizens of one nation, but there is also a reason why we are still broken up into states with separate state and local governments. If one state says you can carry concealed weapons, and another state says you can't and that's important to you, you can move. But whenever the Federal government imposes something you have just lost that freedom to move... everyone is equally screwed.
The federal government should not be running our health care, or the auto industry, or most of the things it runs. That is not the job of the federal government. Shouldn't this stuff be left up to the states and the people within those states?
@92BuickLeSabre: "And if you honestly believe that no safety net, no public education, no highways - none of the things that are necessary to hold us together - are important"
And I didn't say none of those things are important to me. I just said the federal government should stay out of most of it, and leave it to the states, local governments, and the people. I don't think the federal government should be involved in education. But should the federal government be involved in making interstate highways? Yes.
@Rabid Penguin: However, while we're on the subject of roads, do the roads really need to be closed for maintenance 364 days a year? That seems like a waste of tax payer money. Why tear of a perfectly good road to put a perfectly good road in it's place only to tear it up again the next day? The government can't run anything efficiently, effectively, or without hemorrhaging money... let's give 'em health care.
10/20/09
10/03/09
You do this, we do this, you try this, we try this, etc.
Let's not forget that there are tons of very competent hacker groups on all countries... if the US military starts a movement to recruit and form a "global geek squad", at the very same time there will be a movement to recruit and form geek squads in other countries, period.
But if it somehow manages to delay the nuking, it's already better than nothing.
The only problem is that it might also accelerate the process.
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
you could attack known phone numbers and network addresses, but that wouldn't cause a major enough disruption to be useful. and you'd lose the only phone numbers and network addresses you knew about reducing your chances of gathering intelligence.
cyber attacks are really only effective against fixed targets, meaning you're talking about attacking other nations which is not the primary battlefield of the future.
10/04/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
Surely, many country's military will be prepared for a breakdown in primary communications, but the fact that 200 years ago, folks used flags and smoke and one really loud guy as signals on a battlefield and I guess did ok doesn't mean that losing your phones or radios wouldn't be a severe disadvantage.
10/03/09
10/03/09
And if we're talking about an army that both uses a high-tech cyber communications system, but in the event it's damaged or crippled, have an entire minimalist physical communications sub-system in place that can be picked up without missing a beat........
.....Dude.
10/03/09
[www.ft.com]
[www.theaustralian.news.com.au]
They've stolen in the neighborhood of half a trillion dollars worth of classified designs, and probably much more that the public isn't aware of.
It might be better to create a physical data disconnection from the pentagon computer networks to the outside world.
Perhaps we really SHOULD be focusing on "defense". A cyberattack strategy would be beneficial too, but the bigger problem here is American data networks being infiltrated by the Chinese.
They already have top-secret plans for the F-35, the B-2 Bomber's coolant systems...
10/03/09
Looking at their military development, despite decades of supposed theft, their military has never come out with anything remotely beyond what was already expected of their level of progress.
I'm not saying that there isn't always potential for some breakthrough, but the Chinese just don't seem to have the capability to do anything special with whatever they're supposedly stealing.
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/05/09
But as I also said, I don't rule out any possible breakthroughs eventually.
EDIT: I know this is beside the point, but the Chinese also haven't had MiGs for a few decades now. They have some derivatives, but they're so heavily modified, they can safely be classified as completely different planes.
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
09/03/09
Your huddled masses
Yearning to breathe free
And I will hold them to my bosom
And explain to them my plea.
I will end the corporation
And the greedy business too
You will come to rely on government
For everything you do.
I am President of the United States
Monarch, Ruler, King
I will protect you from yourselves
And you won't have to do a thing.
We will make the cars, control your health care and we'll run the banks.
But as to the question of abortion, it's above my pay rank.
We're tough because we care for you and your freedom stands in our way.
How can we embrace you if you're able to turn away?
And in a time of trouble
Do not fear and do not fret.
For I your lord and savior,
Bring you Obamanet.
It doesn't really matter what the Constitution has to say,
Because nobody in government has read it anyway.
09/02/09
""The Internet is a "fearsome awesome problem" and it would have been better if it had never been invented.""
Oh and then there is this little gem from him :
"…it would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years." -David Rockefeller, Bilderberg Meeting, Germany 1991.
[uncensored.co.nz]
09/02/09
There are legitimate complaints, honest arguments, reasoned critiques, and valid fears. And then there is imaginary paranoid crack-pottery. I'm afraid this was a part of that last group.
09/02/09
"When people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." -Thomas Jefferson
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
Then in the middle this forum devolved into a health care debate where anecdotal evidence was thrown around like a fact and then we were suddenly invaded by face huggers and Aliens.
Rather than throwing around my own opinions, I have a couple of questions to ask:
1) Before you decide if this bill, or any bill that grants extensions on governmental powers, is a good thing, ask if you would want a GOP president and GOP congress to have these powers (Or vice versa if you lean more conservative).
2) Is peace and security more important than liberty and Freedom?
3) Would a business without government regulation be better or worse for the population and environment?
4) Neglecting the fact that most countries in the world have price caps on medical procedures, why is the US Health Care system the most expensive?
Just some thoughts.
09/02/09
1) Yes. Because I read it as a matter of the power to coordinate not the power to do. And I believe that the executive could have (and would have) claimed the power to do with or without this bill (regardless of political party.)
2) No. But I get the counter-arguments.
3) Worse. And I don't get the counter-arguments.
4) You got a few days?
09/02/09
I still don't know that the President or any government official needs access to private networks. If its a dire threat you call the company and they pull the plug.
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
More importantly? I would have said "No shit the executive branch should be able to coordinate public and private efforts in the case of an emergency. It's their job."
Hell, I wish post-Katrina the Bush Admin had taken control and coordinated anything other than delivering trailers to the wrong place at the wrong time.
09/03/09
If you choose to live in tornado alley and a tornado hits your house why should someone in a different state be forced to pay for it?
If you choose to live on a fault line and an earthquake destroys your house why should someone in a different state be forced to pay for it?
If you choose to live below sea level and water destroys your house why should someone in another state be forced to pay for it?
People know the risks and yet they still choose to live there. It should be up to the state and local levels along with charities and donations to fix the mess. Why should someone who chooses to live in a state that's above sea level be forced to pay for it?
A lot of people don't even want to move back to New Orleans, so why should I (who lives in a different state) be forced to pay for a place people don't even want to live?
Also, if "Bush is stealing oil in Iraq" is true, and he's no longer in office, but we're still in Iraq, is Obama now stealing oil from Iraq?
09/03/09
And why? Because it is consistent with my ideals of Justice, Ethics, Patriotism, Democracy, Federalism, Christianity, personal morals, humanism, decency, and what it means to be an American. We look out for each other. It's the social contract. We could abandon each other like we are Burma or China or the Sudan. Or we can take seriously that we are One Nation,Under God Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for All. One Nation. One People. It's what my founding fathers taught me. It was why they abandoned the Articles of Confederation for the Constitution. It is what my ancestors and my family fought and died for.
If you don't believe in the Social Contract, that is fine. We simply disagree about what it means to be a Citizen of a Nation.
And the rest of your little ditty (now at the top of the page) is nonsense, and you know it. The folks in government may disagree on how to interpret the Constitution, but most of them take it very, very seriously. On both sides of the aisle.
I apologize for the unusually blatant sincerity and sentimentality. It's late, and my guard is down.
09/03/09
*passes out on desk*
09/03/09
I guess I believe that it's more Christian, more moral, more humane, more decent, and more American, for an individual to willingly donate his time or money to a cause rather than having the Government force him too. We do look out for each other, and we do so without the need for legislated theft.
We are citizens of one nation, but there is also a reason why we are still broken up into states with separate state and local governments. If one state says you can carry concealed weapons, and another state says you can't and that's important to you, you can move. But whenever the Federal government imposes something you have just lost that freedom to move... everyone is equally screwed.
The federal government should not be running our health care, or the auto industry, or most of the things it runs. That is not the job of the federal government. Shouldn't this stuff be left up to the states and the people within those states?
09/03/09
And I didn't say none of those things are important to me. I just said the federal government should stay out of most of it, and leave it to the states, local governments, and the people. I don't think the federal government should be involved in education. But should the federal government be involved in making interstate highways? Yes.
09/03/09