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I don't understand how they determine Mach factor so high up in the atmosphere.
Mach is the speed of sound, but the speed of sound is progressively slower as you get higher in the atmosphere since it gets less and less dense, so Mach 21 in the upper atmosphere may not be all that impressive.
Is there a standard altitude or air density which determines Mach or is it variable? Is this Mach 21 as if it was at 30,000 feet?
First, this is awesome. Second, if I remember Physics 7B well enough, magnetic fields only interact with charged particles. Perhaps the upper atmosphere is mostly charged particles. Third, while this reduces friction of atmospheric gases on the ship's hull, it increases the overall drag coefficient. From the article "trajectory modification to compensate for the increased drag caused by the atmospheric gas deflection".
@The Lab: A reentry spacecraft heats the air around it enough to turn to plasma. Which is, of course, charged particles. :-)
So basically, the capsule hits the atmosphere and the compression heating of air forms a plasma. The field acts on the particles, which does a few things:
1. The plasma is directed away from and around the craft, cutting down on heat transfer and preventing the surface of the craft from superheating.
2. The magnetic field reacting with the plasma creates a drag force on the electromagnet, which slows down the capsule.
3. The plasma presses against the air, forming new plasma to replace that which has been pushed away.
@The Lab: Regular magnetic fields are way too weak to interact with anything that's not charged. Superconductor magnetic fields can interact with just about anything. Search YT for levitating frogs and mice to get the picture, or watch the attached video to upgrade your knowledge in physics. Some weird and amazing stuff is underway with superconductors.
@jepzilla: I had discounted the idea of plasma formation because I thought the plasma would only form upon being heated by the friction with the hull. However, if the vehicle is traveling fast enough, maybe the pressure front of the air it is pushing would create the plasma?
@zwer: There are a few inconsistencies in your post that make me question how much you really know about this subject. For instance, you make a distinction between "regular magnetic fields" and "superconductor magnetic fields". That makes no sense. There is no "regular magnetic field". Furthermore, you can create very weak or very strong magnetic fields using superconductors. Source of magnetic field =/= strength of field. It is important in scientific discussions to use language precisely.
@Duckspwn: Well, eliminating friction caused by air rubbing the skin of the ship. I don't think they mean all friction happening everywhere in the universe.
@Duckspwn: I was thinking that too, there might be some other uses for this technology. Of course I don't know how much energy it costs to create this magnetic field so that might outweigh the benefits of eliminating friction in the first place.
@Duckspwn: It's not eliminating the friction. It's preventing the superheated air molecules from making direct contact with the vehicle's surface during re-entry. A magnetic 'envelope' around the craft, sort of like the magnetic containment field used in Star Trek to keep matter and anti-matter separated.
Duckspwn promoted this comment
Edited by Jrsy Devil's Advocate® at 12/03/09 8:06 PM
Jrsy Devil's Advocate® was starred
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@Duckspwn: My guess would be eliminating it from the hull itself. Somehow pushing the friction a few millimeters/inches/whatever off the the hull into the air itself? Only thing I can think of that makes any sense.
Either that, or they're using a buttload of Crisco.
@Jrsy Devil's Advocate®: So rather than saying it "eliminates friction", it could be said that it merely prevents friction from acting directly on the surface of the ship (therefore avoiding huge amounts of heat)?
@Duckspwn: I was being purposefully hyperbolic, but one would assume this would actually eliminate friction. I have no particular idea if this is true, but I always assumed that friction required two material substances to rub together, not a material substance and an energy field.
I mean... do mag lev trains generate friction along the field that supports them? or magnetic bearings along their track? I wouldn't think they do. There's nothing coming in contact with anything, so there are no molecules available to interact and cause friction.
In any case, even if this does not entirely eliminate friction, it must reduce it to close to zero. If nothing else because it's an active force pushing molecules away from the ship, instead of letting them hit the skin and slide along it.
@Pope John Peeps II: The friction is occurring between the particles of atmosphere being highly compressed against the magnetic field. The compression and friction creates heat.
I think the majority of re-entry heat is from compression anyway, but I'm not 100% sure. Either way, the vehicle isn't going any faster, or marginally so.
@KyleHuff: This is the SECOND time you've said this. It's not going to get any more correct. In fact, logically it's actually gotten 100 % MORE WRONG. Because you said it again.
No matter how hot air might get from compression, if it does not touch the skin of the ship there is no possibility of heat transfer from convection. Haven't you ever had a vacuum thermos? it's the same principle! They've been around for like... a hundred years.
@Pope John Peeps II:
Guy, I don't even know what to say to you. This system most certainly does not work like a vacuum thermos, and it does not work by reducing friction.
At the velocities they are talking about, radiative heating may be a bigger problem than convection anyway.
Would you like me to explain why vacuum thermoses are silvered?
Why don't you just explain it to me Kyle "XY" Huff? Why don't you explain why a vacuum does not insulate, and how delfecting air does not reduce friction.
Why don't I just make myself a tea, settle in to an armchair, and Kyle XY here is going to give me a goddamn lesson in how to read an article. So, Kylie. Let's go. Here's your chance. Dazzle us. Do it.
@Pope John Peeps II: You need to chill out, maybe attach one of these devices.
Vacuum insulates, but heat can still be transferred through radiation. Thus why things will eventually freeze in space and heat-sinks do work (though they need to be larger).
Deflecting the air certainly changes the friction since air molecules aren't getting caught on the molecular ridges of the vehicle's surface, however air molecules are still slamming into each other creating plenty of heat and the magnetic field may not be perfectly smooth either.
A perfectly frictionless vehicle will still be slowed down and heated up when travelling through a medium unless it was perfectly aerodynamic (both "perfects" are impossible).
OMG! Baseon the the name alone we can surmise that this will come about sometime in the next 91 years! This is truly a disaster from the standpoint US competitiveness and technological leadership!
If you're going to comment on a technical blog, the least you could do is not show your ignorance by using ridiculous terminology. The correct phrase is rudder thingies.
@Aturayd: "I just cant wait until they put a credit card swiper at the lavatories..."
Oh, now that's just crazy. That's like saying, "wait until they start charging you exorbitant fees for your normal luggage and carry-ons." As if that kind of thing could ever really...
I see a basic DC10 body, enlarged and then stuck on cool wings. I should have been an aerospace engineer.
Also, if it's only 15mph faster than the 747-8 like Lite says, and it flys much higher. Isn't it actually slower? Because the high altitude means a larger circumference to traverse?
I do see one huge advantage though. Skydiving with oxygen and thermal gear for a solid 3 minutes. Good times.
@vista64guy: It isn't some monumental leap forward really. Hell a 787 has a 43,000' operational ceiling, and max cruise speed for it is 510 Knots...
We're mostly limited to ~.85 mach for efficiency reasons at the moment. Boeing was going to build a plane prior to the 787 that would have cruised at like .97 mach, but w/ the rapid run-up in fuel costs the last few years, that plan was scrapped outright in favor of the 787's increased fuel efficiency.
What amazes me is that a plane designed in the 60's is still being revised and improved 40 years later. (747 Series)
So, basically right now it's a pretty picture and mostly vaporware that will require billions of dollars of investment in manufacturing processes, materials development, and will be turned into another sardine can like the current generation of aircraft when and if it makes it to production?
Let's see, it flies... 15 mph faster on paper than a 747-8 at cruising speed. It is also only a twin-engine design which limits some routing as well.
@Lite: well, with ETOPS-180 and ETOPS-207 regulations, twin-engine aircraft can reach about 95% of the world. Routing may not be quite as favorable, but they can still get there.
My curiosity, though, is where's the vertical and horizontal stabilizers? Or are the winglets sufficient for yaw control? The horizontal stabilizer on conventional planes also allow for large variations in CG of the plane that you don't find so much in a "flying wing" design. Don't know how well this'll work for commercial service...
@Lite: Back when the NDP was in power here in British Columbia they spent billions making new, faster, fancier ferries (say that 3 times fast, lets go) to take people from the mainland to Vancouver Island. What they didn't consider was that the new faster ferries would have to wait in line while the old slower ferries unloaded and loaded, essentially making the new ferries just as slow as the old ferries. I believe we sold the new ferries for about 1/10th of their original cost. Good times. I wonder if the same problems would affect something like a new, faster plane?
@misler: I was wondering the same thing. Sure it looks futuristic and all, but that design will make it so much more dependant on computer for stable flight. That thing would probably have one hell of a landing distance due to the fact that it would have to come in pretty fast. Kinda tough to flare well with only ailerons. Unless they want to use drag chutes like an F-117.
@hooked-on-tronics: So, they sold the newer ferries, rather than expand upon the infrastructure to dock them by selling off a few slower older ones?? Sounds like government
@closhedbb: Many newer jet aircraft systems at this point are depending more upon electronics and electric motivation rather than hydraulic. So, that's pretty normal for the current evolution of aircraft.
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Mach is the speed of sound, but the speed of sound is progressively slower as you get higher in the atmosphere since it gets less and less dense, so Mach 21 in the upper atmosphere may not be all that impressive.
Is there a standard altitude or air density which determines Mach or is it variable? Is this Mach 21 as if it was at 30,000 feet?
12/03/09
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So basically, the capsule hits the atmosphere and the compression heating of air forms a plasma. The field acts on the particles, which does a few things:
1. The plasma is directed away from and around the craft, cutting down on heat transfer and preventing the surface of the craft from superheating.
2. The magnetic field reacting with the plasma creates a drag force on the electromagnet, which slows down the capsule.
3. The plasma presses against the air, forming new plasma to replace that which has been pushed away.
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Either that, or they're using a buttload of Crisco.
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I mean... do mag lev trains generate friction along the field that supports them? or magnetic bearings along their track? I wouldn't think they do. There's nothing coming in contact with anything, so there are no molecules available to interact and cause friction.
In any case, even if this does not entirely eliminate friction, it must reduce it to close to zero. If nothing else because it's an active force pushing molecules away from the ship, instead of letting them hit the skin and slide along it.
12/03/09
I think the majority of re-entry heat is from compression anyway, but I'm not 100% sure. Either way, the vehicle isn't going any faster, or marginally so.
12/03/09
All the re-entry heat is from compression. Friction is a red herring.
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12/03/09
No matter how hot air might get from compression, if it does not touch the skin of the ship there is no possibility of heat transfer from convection. Haven't you ever had a vacuum thermos? it's the same principle! They've been around for like... a hundred years.
12/03/09
Guy, I don't even know what to say to you. This system most certainly does not work like a vacuum thermos, and it does not work by reducing friction.
At the velocities they are talking about, radiative heating may be a bigger problem than convection anyway.
Would you like me to explain why vacuum thermoses are silvered?
12/04/09
Why don't you just explain it to me Kyle "XY" Huff? Why don't you explain why a vacuum does not insulate, and how delfecting air does not reduce friction.
Why don't I just make myself a tea, settle in to an armchair, and Kyle XY here is going to give me a goddamn lesson in how to read an article. So, Kylie. Let's go. Here's your chance. Dazzle us. Do it.
05:44 PM
Vacuum insulates, but heat can still be transferred through radiation. Thus why things will eventually freeze in space and heat-sinks do work (though they need to be larger).
Deflecting the air certainly changes the friction since air molecules aren't getting caught on the molecular ridges of the vehicle's surface, however air molecules are still slamming into each other creating plenty of heat and the magnetic field may not be perfectly smooth either.
A perfectly frictionless vehicle will still be slowed down and heated up when travelling through a medium unless it was perfectly aerodynamic (both "perfects" are impossible).
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If you're going to comment on a technical blog, the least you could do is not show your ignorance by using ridiculous terminology. The correct phrase is rudder thingies.
Sheesh.
11/24/08
I just cant wait until they put a credit card swiper at the lavatories...
11/24/08
Oh, now that's just crazy. That's like saying, "wait until they start charging you exorbitant fees for your normal luggage and carry-ons." As if that kind of thing could ever really...
Oh. Wait.
11/24/08
Also, if it's only 15mph faster than the 747-8 like Lite says, and it flys much higher. Isn't it actually slower? Because the high altitude means a larger circumference to traverse?
I do see one huge advantage though. Skydiving with oxygen and thermal gear for a solid 3 minutes. Good times.
11/24/08
We're mostly limited to ~.85 mach for efficiency reasons at the moment. Boeing was going to build a plane prior to the 787 that would have cruised at like .97 mach, but w/ the rapid run-up in fuel costs the last few years, that plan was scrapped outright in favor of the 787's increased fuel efficiency.
What amazes me is that a plane designed in the 60's is still being revised and improved 40 years later. (747 Series)
11/24/08
Let's see, it flies... 15 mph faster on paper than a 747-8 at cruising speed. It is also only a twin-engine design which limits some routing as well.
11/24/08
My curiosity, though, is where's the vertical and horizontal stabilizers? Or are the winglets sufficient for yaw control? The horizontal stabilizer on conventional planes also allow for large variations in CG of the plane that you don't find so much in a "flying wing" design. Don't know how well this'll work for commercial service...
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