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New York, 4:09 AM
Fri Dec 11
65 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of ManiacFive ManiacFive
    12/04/09

    In reply to Senator Introduces Bill to Smack Down Early Termination Fees
    I'm not sure how it works in the states, could somebody clarify this for me? Using o2 in the UK for an example, if you sign up for a 18 month contract and want to cancel, you'd be expected to pay the amount of monthly line rental x months remaining on contract

    Is the early termination fee Verizon applies a flat fee? regardless of when the early termination occours? Because that does sound like BS to me.
     Reply
    ManiacFive was starred ManiacFive was unstarred
    Image of OMG! Ponies! OMG! Ponies!
    12/04/09

    In reply to Senator Introduces Bill to Smack Down Early Termination Fees
    My only problem with ETFs is from a legal standpoint.

    Penalty fees are not legally permissible. As the motion court (correctly) held in Ayyad v. Sprint, early termination fees are impermissible because they do not constitute liquidated damages.

    If carriers want to claim that ETFs are liquidated damages for subsidizing the costs, then let them prove that in admissible form to beyond a preponderance of the evidence.

    It's not about morality; it's about legality.
     Reply
    OMG! Ponies! was starred OMG! Ponies! was unstarred
    Image of Badlands99 Badlands99
    12/04/09

    @OMG! Ponies!: Then clearly this is a job for the judicial branch, not the legislative branch.
     Reply
    OMG! Ponies! promoted this comment Badlands99 was starred Badlands99 was unstarred
    Image of OMG! Ponies! OMG! Ponies!
    12/04/09

    @Badlands99: Most problems can be solved through enforcement of existing law as opposed to creation of new law.
     Reply
    OMG! Ponies! was starred OMG! Ponies! was unstarred
    Image of Badlands99 Badlands99
    12/04/09

    @OMG! Ponies!: Thank you for that refreshing bit of reason in this damp pit of lunacy.

    We already have an insane amount of laws, we hardly need new ones about cell phones.
     Reply
    Badlands99 was starred Badlands99 was unstarred
    Image of OMG! Ponies! OMG! Ponies!
    12/04/09

    @Badlands99: Not a problem. Our country seems to think that "judge-made" law is somehow inferior. However, judge-made law often injects a fair amount of reason into vague, ambiguous, or otherwise deficient legislation.

    This is more brightline-philia (a nasty fetish where people think that there needs to be a law to cover every one of life's possibilities). This legislation simply doesn't need to be passed. Basic fundamentals of contract law that have existed for generations can easily be brought to bear on the question of the propriety of ETFs.

    We have judges for a reason: to interpret law, i.e. to take existing law and apply it to a set of circumstances, thereby refining the law.
     Reply
    OMG! Ponies! was starred OMG! Ponies! was unstarred
    Image of Duckspwn Duckspwn
    12/04/09

    In reply to Senator Introduces Bill to Smack Down Early Termination Fees
    Everyone, please raise your hand if you do not want to get involved in this argument. *raises hand*
     Reply
    Duckspwn was starred Duckspwn was unstarred
    Image of Mayor McRib Mayor McRib
    12/04/09

    In reply to Senator Introduces Bill to Smack Down Early Termination Fees
    I don't have a problem with ETF's, I just have a problem with them being doubled. If they want to charge $350 they had better be giving away their best smart phones for free. I broke my contract with them when I decided that an iPhone was more important that impeccable phone service, guess what, I paid the fee ($110 due to it going down every month of service) and went about my business. There is no such thing as a free phone, get over it.
     Reply
    Mayor McRib was starred Mayor McRib was unstarred
    Image of Alfisted Alfisted
    12/04/09

    In reply to Senator Introduces Bill to Smack Down Early Termination Fees
    The carriers have painted themselves into a corner with the subsidy model. There's no question they'd like out of it but none can afford to be first. A law banning ETFs altogether might have the unintended consequence of ending subsidies.

    Despite the risk, I'd like to see it happen. I wonder if a similar desire by VZ is behind the seemingly poor timing of their increased ETFs.
     Reply
    Alfisted was starred Alfisted was unstarred
    Image of Kaiser-Machead Kaiser-Machead
    12/04/09

    In reply to Senator Introduces Bill to Smack Down Early Termination Fees
    If the ETF is a big issue for you, don't buy a phone on a contract. It's incentive to keep you from leaving while you pay about half or less on the price of a brand new phone. I understand why people have an issue with it, but those are the breaks if you want to sign into an obligation and get a subsidy price as your tradeoff.

    Texting prices are far more bullshit than ETF's.
     Reply
    Kaiser-Machead was starred Kaiser-Machead was unstarred
    Image of STiger STiger
    12/04/09

    @Kaiser-Machead: The upsetting thing is that the contract costs more than the phone...at least for me, anyway...
     Reply
    STiger was starred STiger was unstarred
    Image of Guy Joseph Wikum Guy Joseph Wikum
    12/04/09

    @STiger: The problem here is that the cost of the phone is not real. For the most part, you can't just go buy the phone you like, then pick the carrier you like. The guys building the phones don't compete against each other, not in any real, direct sense. It's all about one carrier having the coolest phone. If we want a real, competative marketplace, any phone needs to work with any carrier, without any contract. The 'price' of the phone would go down, and the cost of service would go down as well. (The quality of service might drop as well-- sometimes, we get what we pay for...).
     Reply
    Alfisted approved this comment Guy Joseph Wikum was starred Guy Joseph Wikum was unstarred
    Image of Badongadoodle Badongadoodle
    12/04/09

    @Kaiser-Machead: Perhaps - but $20 for UNLIMITED texts per month sounds like a deal to most.
     Reply
    Kaiser-Machead promoted this comment Badongadoodle was starred Badongadoodle was unstarred
    Image of Kaiser-Machead Kaiser-Machead
    12/04/09

    @Badongadoodle: The problem is that it's not a good deal. Not at all. $20 a month for unlimited of something that doesn't cost the telco much of anything at all is crap.
     Reply
    Kaiser-Machead was starred Kaiser-Machead was unstarred
    Image of Christian Pacheco Christian Pacheco
    12/04/09

    @Kaiser-Machead: It's called capitalism. they will continue to charge as long as people are willing to pay for it. Text message its a luxury service, same as data. The thing is people are too addicted to it. Hopefully Google Voice will bring some good competition to the table. Just my $0.02
     Reply
    yantelope promoted this comment Christian Pacheco was starred Christian Pacheco was unstarred
    Image of Joe Stoner Joe Stoner
    12/04/09

    @Kaiser-Machead: It may not cost the telco much of anything to trasmit (although there are other costs involved in supported a text message system). But the $20/month is based on what the service is worth to consumers, not what it costs for providers.
     Reply
    Joe Stoner was starred Joe Stoner was unstarred
    Image of Alfisted Alfisted
    12/04/09

    @Guy Joseph Wikum: In the US, making "any phone" work with "any carrier" would lead to a sharp increase in phone prices, if it can even be done. In addition to requiring multiple radios to accommodate different network technologies, each carrier's implementation is unique and requires some degree of device specialization.
     Reply
    Alfisted was starred Alfisted was unstarred
    Image of yantelope yantelope
    12/04/09

    @Alfisted: You don't have to guarantee that every phone works on every network but the BS with locking phones to certain networks should end. I had a phone that wouldn't let you install java apps unless you entered a secret code which could only be found by searching the internet. The carriers had locked the ability to install games on it so they could sell you games directly. We probably need some sort of antitrust legislation to stop locking phones to networks. That would create true choice in cell phone networks and actually create some competition.
     Reply
    yantelope was starred yantelope was unstarred
    Image of Alfisted Alfisted
    12/04/09

    @yantelope: The specific situation you faced does not require government intervention. Carriers have come to realize that the era of exclusive carrier control of content is ending and the market is opening up rapidly. It's not unlike what happened to AOL after its first few years of being a one stop shop for all things Internet.

    If that sort of freedom is important to you, I strongly recommend an Android or Windows phone. iPhone also offers a lot of choice with respect to apps, but within the context of Apple's monolithic control.

    As far as locking phones to a specific network, there are legitimate technical reasons why most carriers are not enthusiastic about putting a competitor's phone on their network. That said, most if not all carriers will now provide the unlocking code for your device, assuming your contract has termed.
     Reply
    Alfisted was starred Alfisted was unstarred
    Image of AmphetamineCrown AmphetamineCrown
    12/04/09

    @yantelope: There are very few carriers that will not unlock phones for you if you are out of contract. The iPhone is a notable exception. There, as I understand it, the locking is required by Apple.
     Reply
    AmphetamineCrown was starred AmphetamineCrown was unstarred
    Image of AmphetamineCrown AmphetamineCrown
    12/04/09

    @Guy Joseph Wikum: Your comment doesn't really recognize the global nature of the mobile phone business. Think, for just one second, about the companies that were on top of the phone market 10 years ago--or even 5. Where are they now? We are talking about MASSIVE shifts in market share. Christ, Apple is a new entrant and has a huge share of the smartphone market in terms of new sales. You claim that somehow that market isn't competitive?

    The costs of phones are most definitely "real."
     Reply
    AmphetamineCrown was starred AmphetamineCrown was unstarred
    Image of 1977twenty3 1977twenty3
    12/04/09

    @Alfisted: I call BS on this. The rest of the world uses GSM (sim cards) and barely any lock phones.

    What you're talking about is CDMA (sim-cardless). It's old technology that American carriers keep around to lock you to the phone and contracts THEY decide they want you to have. That's why (until iPhone) I always bought badass phones off simoncells.com that no one in the US had, and used it on T-mobile's GSM network.

    By the way, phones and service are alot cheaper overseas.
     Reply
    Alfisted approved this comment 1977twenty3 was starred 1977twenty3 was unstarred
    Image of Alfisted Alfisted
    12/04/09

    @1977twenty3: Uhh, yeeeeah. GSM has the dominant market share but CDMA is a bit more thanan "old technology that American carriers keep around". There are 2G and or 3G CDMA networks in more than 120 countries around the world, serving more than half a billion subscribers.

    It would be a huge boost for interoperability of devices if all US carriers were on GSM but the fact is, more than half of the US' wireless subs are on CDMA.
     Reply
    Alfisted was starred Alfisted was unstarred
    Image of OMG! Ponies! OMG! Ponies!
    11/17/08

    In reply to Flee Your Sprint Contract Without Paying an ETF
    Just keep your paperwork for when Sprint sends you a bill later for the ETF.


    Telcos say sorts of things on the phone. Then they slam you with the ETF after agreeing to waive it. At least that was my experience with T-Mobile.

     Reply
    OMG! Ponies! was starred OMG! Ponies! was unstarred
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