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11/28/09
Le sigh.
11/28/09
How many people does @jamesmarcusbach employ/manage that are highschool dropouts, and how many of them have college degrees?
It's easy to dismiss the value of an education by citing the people who have made a difference without one. How about listing the many who *do* have degree's that are equally important?
I think that @jamesmarcusbach has made a fundamental flaw in his argument. He says that those on "intellectual autopilot" only study when they're forced to. That's incorrect. They only study subject they care *nothing* about when they're forced too. I don't know of *any* human being that doesn't have passion about *something.* All the author is saying, is taht in 1987, the people working for apple didn't really care much about the job they were doing. That's human nature. Clearly, @JMB was different, he cared about his job, and that's why he excelled.
To his point about college: College isn't for everyone--its unfortunate that not having a degree has a stigma in most societies. If you have a great idea, or have the desire to start a business, or don't want to waste time in college because you already know what you want to do, then by all means work your ass off and make your dreams come true. Some of the most successful businessmen on the planet don't have MBA's let alone formal education.
But if you're dropping out because you don't feel like finishing school, and you're just gonna see what happens, well then thats not a very smart plan. The average salary for a college grad vs a highschool dropout speak for themselves.
11/27/09
11/28/09
11/27/09
11/27/09
I think his assertions that people in degree programs are somehow more likely to be on autopilot is false. He offers no proof, just anecdotal observation.
I think he seriously downplays the disadvantage of not having a degree. For instance, the medical research I am interested involves a deep understanding of both chemistry and medicine. You can't learn these things in a home lab with a ill-gotten cadaver. You need an MD and PhD, not because they are pieces of paper but because the programs provided an environment to experiment that would simply be illegal and impractical to recreate at home.
11/27/09
There's nothing wrong with having a degree. But not having one doesn't automatically condemn a skilled, experienced person to joblessness. That's the point.
(Naturally, as you pointed out, the medical field is one where this tends to not apply. I doubt too many people are considering a homebrew medical degree.)
11/27/09
In my field, I've found many people do that. I can count on this phenomenon. I, who love what I do, am driven to master it. If I loved chemistry and medicine I would master that, too.
When you say "you need an MD and PHD, not because they are pieces of paper" you are not engaging my argument. I'm trying to separate schooling and education. I'm focusing on education, which may be a social process, but ultimately must be personal. I recommend the book The Science of Describing for an interesting take on this. The leading naturalists of the 16th century, many of whom were professors at medical schools, commonly complained that their students applied themselves poorly to the material. They couldn't force their kids to learn well.
Of course, Charles Darwin seems a counter-example, too. He famously dropped out of medical school. He refused to go to the lectures because he found them so boring, but then he made himself into perhaps the most respected naturalist in the world at the time-- writing the definitive works on barnacles.
Or consider the career of Joseph Priestly (see The Invention of Air) who innovated in chemistry and electricity, as you may recall. He was self-educated. So was Voltaire, when he ran his salon and became one of the first great intellectual super-stars.
I understand that you believe in a good education. So do I. To get there, we need to think of it in terms beyond suckling at the teat of external authority. Even though, we both agree, schooling can be helpful.
11/27/09
IMHO, it seems that the author is taking this further, casting serious doubt on the utility of degree programs and intentionally ignoring that his approach simply would not work in many, many fields.
11/27/09
Second, I think gizmodo needs to confer upon you an honorary commenter star STAT.
To engage your point directly, I take issue with the assertion that "some people sit back on their credentials and proceed on the assumption they are "educated" rather than striving to master their art". Perhaps this is true with undergraduate degrees but from what I've seen in the two graduate programs I have been associated with, no one graduates who hasn't striven to become a master of their art. That's probably why they call them master's degrees.
I understand schooling and education are different. However it is very difficult to become an expert in many fields if you do not pass through the schooling process. Likewise, it is very difficult to pass through a graduate curriculum at a major university without also becoming an expert in the subject matter.
11/27/09
Being a self-teacher is so much easier with the internet. Back in the day if you wanted to learn something you had to go to the library and check out books. Know what a card catalog is? Be glad if you don't. Now you can learn just about anything you want to by googling it.
11/28/09
11/27/09
I haven't read his book, but from his tone in this excerpt, he seems to feel that those who toil for years in school to earn a degree aren't really independent thinkers, but sheep in the quest of a piece of paper.
"I talked to coworkers who wanted to further their education, but they typically spoke in terms of getting a new piece of paper, such as a bachelor's degree, a masters, or a PhD."
Right. That's because this is how we've measured and confirmed the educational level of individuals for centuries. Educating yourself is fantastic, but try getting a research or medical position by telling them you've really been boning up on your biochemistry lately.
Granted, an advanced degree on someone's resume is by no means a guarantee of the person's intelligence or ability, but it does demonstrate that they've put in the years of hard work that the degree required. That, more than anything else, speaks to the nature of the person.
11/27/09
11/27/09
I'm speaking in terms of what some people here have been using as the value metric for a degree: "working hard towards a goal for an extended period of time".
11/27/09
Some fields are easier than others to "work" your way into. With others, a degree is simply a requirement to perform the job.
11/27/09
Also, take a long at my other (rather long) post on the subject.
11/27/09
11/27/09
Do you know where science comes from? Well, two of the people most credited with the inspiration for creating the vast community we call "science" were Galileo and Francis Bacon. Both of them strongly bucked against the dominant education traditions of the day.
Bacon specifically rejected Scholasticism, which is an extreme form of the "set of standards" you speak of. He helped overthrow that tradition. I'm glad that he did. I consider myself one of his many heirs, carrying on the spirit of his work.
And did you know that in the middle ages, professional artists had to be certified? That is no longer the case, and we have a richer artistic tradition because of it.
Conventional thinkers dislike buccaneers. They are pushy and impolite. That is as it should be. Stay barricaded behind your city gate, if you like. We rule the waves.
11/27/09
We all practice psychology, every day. It's our birthright as humans.
11/27/09
I suggest you read more about the history of educated people. Please don't think you have to enroll in an actual history class to learn the basics of educational history. You can start with Wikipedia, perhaps.
Education is so much more interesting than anything that can be measured with a standardized test.
11/27/09
This is a subject in which you obviously outclass me- you've lived it and literally written the book on it. I'm neither as experienced nor accomplished as yourself, but I will try to make a few points to respond to your well-written statements.
I think that the first and most important thing to realize is that almost no one will be you. Almost no one will be Richard Branson. I won't quote you statistics with which you're almost certainly familiar, but there are definite and measurable disadvantages that face the average US high school dropout, most of whom will not become focused, skilled software programmers.
Traditional, brick-and-mortar education systems allow young people a place to discover what it is they enjoy, and pursue it in a structured manner. I understand that it wasn't for you, and certainly isn't for everyone, but for me, the joy of learning was never dampened by the fact that my education took place in a traditional setting.
I don't want this to degrade into an argument (one that I'd no doubt lose), and I hope you don't take my comments to be attacks on yourself or your ideas, which I hope to better understand after reading the book. I simply feel that, for the vast majority of individuals, traditional education is a path to betterment, not a restraint of true potential.
Thanks again, heading out to order the Kindle edition of your book.
Unless, of course, you wanted to send me a signed copy. =D
11/27/09
11/27/09
What really attracts me to history is that it's one-way logic: all past and present events can affect the future, but what you do in the future cannot affect the past.
I also tend to also take the classes that interest me one way or the other, and I find that I learn more out of that experience than just taking a class for industrial workplace purposes.
11/27/09
11/27/09
11/27/09
Psychologically, this thread is quite compelling.
11/27/09
Granted it does have to be done but I don't think I could ever bring myself to do something like software testing full time. I prefer to write stuff, do some informal testing, when I'm happy it should work forget about it and just fix it when someone else finds a problem with it.
11/27/09
And on the topic of university and education; if you can combine that thirst for knowledge in a good educational setting, it can be nirvana. Reading through the course calender is like walking through a Candy-shop as a child. Sitting in discussions about topics that have kept you up at night is an amazing experience. University certainly isn't for everyone, but there are good reasons it is valued.
11/27/09
James sounds like an exception, so this is definitely not applicable to everyone, but those who can relate (and may feel doubt if they're following the right path) will surely leap up and do *jazz hands* like myself. After all, exceptions are exceptional.
I give thanx, James and Gizmodo!
11/27/09
If it doesn't come down again, do you say "Well, that ball is an exception." No. You look up and see what happened to the ball. And once you find out ("Oh, it got stuck on my roof"), you can PLAN to make that happen every time, if you want.
Of course I'm an exception-- I did something different.
I suppose what you're trying to say is that I was just lucky; that I won a sort of unriggable lottery. That's would explain any one favorable event in my education and my life, but the whole string of them?
I didn't just get hired by Apple (and before and after that by other people), I went on to hire people myself, and I looked for people who had certain traits. That means at least ONE hiring manager in Silicon Valley, in the 90's, was like me. But I met and spoke with many others who were of generally like mind.
11/27/09
I was thankful that HP let me design calculators because I had the ability to, even though I had no degree.
Getting that 'paper' does give you a place and time to develop and learn on your own at the same time.
And getting my degree later on gave me a place to identify myself with. It's like the 'paper' is a symbol of who I am more than testimony that I'm smart enough to do a job. It's something desirable for emotional reasons, in other words.
11/27/09
11/27/09
Heck, I still don't have a degree - I've used all my spare time learning new programming techniques, learning to develop for new game systems (popular and not), etc. As long as you keep learning, you can keep yourself in the game doing what you want.
11/27/09
11/27/09
11/27/09
We have open source software, wide availability of all kinds of information, even courseware from universities, if you like. We have blogging and Youtube. People can create and post their work all over the place to advertise what they love to do.
I'm no longer a hiring manager in the tech field, but if I were, I see lots of ways to find and hire excellent people, regardless of their formal education.
11/28/09
But, there are always fields that have this potential. Who knows, maybe you might be the pioneer to starts the ball rolling in a new field?
11/26/09
The institutions established by our society might suck, but only those who manage to get through them will ever be in a position to put an end to them.
11/26/09
11/27/09
Voltaire lived in a world where the power of the Catholic church in France was considered unassailable, and yet he assailed it, and the values of the Enlightenment did bring profound change to the dominant social structure.
I'm not Voltaire, or Bacon, or Spinoza, but I'm working in their tradition. I see that world can be better in some ways, and I'm doing the little things I can do to try to convince you that you don't need any schoolmaster's permission to participate in intellectual life on a high level.