I think this post gives AT&T far too much credit and is insufficiently critical given the degree to which AT&T and its competitors (esp. Verizon and T-Mobile) have been in the media recently.
My read of the situation is this: AT&T is struggling with insufficient network resources and insufficient monetization of their existing network. All of the telcos would probably love to do away with the new FCC stand on net neutrality. However, only AT&T seems to be acting as if it is in a life-or-death situation because of net neutrality.
If AT&T's competitors feel that they will have more than sufficient network resources and a competitive enough pricing structure to be compliant with the new definition of net neutrality being imposed on them, and they feel that AT&T lacks those resources, they will go ahead and offer unlimited voice and data plans and contractless plans, support Skype and other 3rd party VOIP and messaging systems, etc. In other words, if they think they can get ahead of what people want to do on their network and still make a profit, Verizon and T-Mobile can let the new FCC regulations strangle those cellular providers that can't maintain that level of network usage. And it sure looks like that's what Verizon and T-Mobile are doing.
E.g., taking the projected pricing according to leaked details of T-Mobile's Project Dark: would you rather have an iPhone 3G on AT&T, or a smartphone based on any other platform than the iPhone, more or unlimited minutes, unlimited text, and unlimited data for the SAME PRICE, plus network speeds that are supposed to be OVER TWICE AS FAST as AT&T's projected (not current) network speeds?
In short, AT&T needs cash to compete. It needs a kickback from Barnes & Noble for providing the ability to download miniscule amounts of data to Nooks. It needs its employees to do everything they can to try to stop the FCC. It needs a cash settlement from the LCD industry, which has already been investigated for and found guilty of price fixing in the past.
@cobaltage: Yes, because obviously the vast, vast revenues they get from B&N for Nook and the $585M from this suit will make a noticeable change in the cost structure for a company that had revenues of what, like $120B last year...
"Insufficient monetization of their existing network?" WTF does that mean? The implication of your statement is that they aren't making the money off the network that they could? Only that doesn't seem consistent with your philosophy. Perhaps you should start working with smaller words and smaller concepts and build up to bigger things. #lcdpricefixing
@AmphetamineCrown: So, you're counterargument is that a company that has revenues of $120B doesn't need to worry about $585M, or that it offers services without considering the effect on its network or how much compensation it receives? This is your "philosophy"?
Here's some reading for you on the general picture:
I would say that AT&T signed on for the iPhone 3G thinking it had some idea about how many people might buy it, and how much data they would be using. Whatever those numbers were, AT&T was wrong on both counts. Do you think they planned to not make a profit until month 17 of a 24 month contract for an iPhone 3G? "Not making a profit" means "losing money," by the way. AT&T is basically complaining that they hadn't anticipated an average use of 400MB per month per iPhone. They signed on millions of customers for the iPhone 3G; and they play catch up on subsidies and operational costs on each and every two-year contract for 70% of the duration. I call that "insufficient monetization of their network." What do you call it?
@cobaltage: The *only* point I'd agree on with you is that AT&T didn't anticipate a 5000% rise in data demand in 3 years. Bottom line, you can regurgitate a bunch of links, but you still can't make a turd into gold. Your argument is stupid.
First, it is premised on AT&T taking a bunch of steps to increase near term revenues. Only none of the things you cited have any prospect of creating near term revenue. The nook isn't going to generate dick, and probably has the same cycle in terms of payback as the iPhone. The LCD suit will be litigated forever. They will lucky to see any money for several years.
Second, "monetizing assets" means taking assets--things you have--and finding ways to generate money off them for minimal investment. Whatever you are talking about, whatever the hell it is, it isn't "monetizing an asset." You seem to be implying that they need to invest in their network--well they have. To the tune of $38B in the past two years. And will be spending another $18B this year. That isn't monetizing an asset, that is building new infrastructure. Completely different calculus. Monetizing asset = taking paid for asset and realizing revenue. Investment means making capital expenditures and calculating a return.
Third, do I think they planned not to make a profit on the iPhone until well into the contract? Yes, dumbass. It is just another way of saying that the return on their investment took time. The fact that they are making a profit--even after month 17--means they invested money in the iPhone and then got more money back. The fact that their investment had not had a return yet in month 16 doesn't mean they "lost money." Just means it hadn't turned a profit yet--they only "lost money" if the contract ended in mo. 16, and, as we know, its a two year contract. The iPhone carries one of the largest subsidies ever paid by a carrier. You really think, that after paying a $400 subsidy on day 1, it is reasonable to expect them to turn a profit the first month?
Like I said, learn what the words mean. They it becomes easier to put them into coherent order to form logical arguments. #lcdpricefixing
@AmphetamineCrown: I'll tell you what. You win. AT&T is doing great. The LCD industry won't make a cash settlement. AT&T doesn't care about $500M because a company that makes $120B does so by not making $500M. And yes, the Nook uses exactly as much data and costs just as much to have on the network as an iPhone. You're a genius. #lcdpricefixing
@Alessar: God help me, why? If you actually use more than 25 SMS/mo., you might as well get their $5 plan for 200.
Seems like the world falls into a couple different categories. Serious SMSers, who pay almost nothing per SMS. NonSMSers, like me, who pay nothing because we don't use it. OK, I'll admit that there may be people stuck in the twilight... But, we're really talking about less than $5/mo here. Guess I just have a hard time getting worked up over it. #lcdpricefixing
@MMGuru: I understand that. But, before the advent of the big buckets 'o voice minutes, you used to pay to receive voice calls too. That sucked donkey balls when it was someone you didn't want to talk too...
I still fail to understand SMS anyway. My wife SMSs me. It is no more or less difficult, I would think, to write a bloody email. Only you get more characters. And a better guarantee of delivery. And other features. And, virtually every phone is data enabled, or at least email enabled. So someone educate me, why do people give a flying toss about SMS? #lcdpricefixing
So AT&T is mad because they feel another company overcharged them? Funny thing is they would have still charged the same price to their customers no matter how much less they were charged, the "overcharges" just accounts for them making less profit. Customers will never see it. They only reduce prices when they cannot sell at the higher price. #lcdpricefixing
@hbuzzell: Well, to be fair, it's not that they "feel" that they were "overcharged" it's that they "know" they were "overcharged illegally."
It's like the difference between "suspecting" that your co-worker has "forgotten how to make coffee" and "seeing" him "piss in the pot."
And whether they would have passed the savings on is kind of irrelevant, right? If someone embezzled, say, $50K from AT&T, should they get away with it just because it doesn't impact the consumer? #lcdpricefixing
@92BuickLeSabre: If they felt the prices were fixed and there was price gouging, then why pay those prices and then complain? If all those companies set a standard price for a product and the market was paying that price, then why do people come back later and complain of price gouging. I see a lot of things and wonder if prices are being manipulated improperly but if the market is willing to pay those prices and it is not an emergency situation then it is probably not price gouging. Here is price gouging - gas was $2.50/gal. (stations paying $1.25/gal for the gas); hurricane hits and the stations that are open suddenly start charging $4.50/gal (they are still only paying $1.25/gal). Even though the market will pay it because they need it to survive, it is unethical to raise the price because of the circumstance and any price increase will be considered price gouging. In AT&T's circumstance, their suppliers set a price, AT&T knew what it was, made orders anyway and then complained about it after the fact. They should have refused to order and caused a stink before to be able to negotiate a better price. That is like me paying $1000 for a TV because the size of TV I want is pretty much $1000 no matter what brand I buy, but then 6 months later complaining because I spent $1000 but now feel like I should have only pay $700. Just seems like filing a lawsuit after you agreed to the price by placing orders and paying for it is a little childlike. #lcdpricefixing
@hbuzzell: I'm sorry, but your comment so fundamentally misunderstands and/or misstates what happened here that I'm not even sure how to respond.
But I'll try, and I will manage to write way too much even though I'm not sure how to respond, which is impressive(!):
a) This is not "price gouging" in the way that you are using it. It is "price fixing." While John does use the word "gouging" he means it to say "unfair price" not "doubling the price to screw people in an emergency."
b) If you are arguing that we shouldn't care about "price fixing" so long as the market pays that price, fine. You are welcome to write your congressperson and let them know. But that is not the law. And it isn't about "a price that is too high." It is about supposed competitors in a market collaborating on a price so that there is no competition. The result is an unfairly inflated price. The crime is the fixing.
c) If you want to know why these things are a problem and why your "market is willing to pay the price" argument is not sound, listen to the This American Life podcast I mentioned. But let me give you a real world flip-side version to show you why your solution makes no sense. Wal-Mart (which, due to its size, operates - legally - as a near monopoly in some markets) approaches small company and says "we would like to stock your product." Small company says "holy crap! Awesome! We will have to expand by 500% to fill the orders, but of course!" Two years later, Wal-Mart says "We've decided we are only going to pay you 80% of what we agreed upon for the last contract." Small supplier can now either (a) go along with Wal-Mart's new price or (b) "stop and negotiate a new price" and in the meantime they lose 80% of their sales and sit on stalled factories and stuffed warehouses while costs accumulate with no incoming revenue.
This is the same thing. AT&T (a) can't go elsewhere, because there is price fixing! and (b) can't simply stop a huge line of their business and say "Okay, we will just sit here and make no revenue on this while I sue you in court."
d) How do you have any idea whether or not AT&T was or was not cooperating with the criminal investigation all along? They may well have instigated it. Procedurally, this is how it works (for a number of cost, proof, court efficiency, and evidentiary reasons) - criminal trial goes first, civil trials follow. It, almost certainly, has nothing to do with AT&T not realizing there was a problem and then taking advantage of the situation. #lcdpricefixing
@92BuickLeSabre: I never said that I agree with Price Fixing or that it is not wrong; but if you believe that companies are price fixing, then instead of suing them, fix them permanently by making what they are doing known and then not buying from them until they resolve it. For the amount of AT&T LCD contract, if they started saying we will not buy and here is why and got everyone else needing this product to do the same, one of these suppliers would give in and lower their prices. As consumers, we encounter price fixing in many parts of our lives, as we encounter it, we have to decide if it bothers us or not. Companies set their prices (and some do it in tandem so it is fixed across the market); if we demand more competitive prices with out spending power, we would probably see a lot better results than lawsuits which take forever and only fix one small thing (but not the whole issue at hand). I just think we are too lawsuit happy across the board and there has got to be a better way of changing this stuff. If I disprove of a company, it product, etc; I show my disapproval by not spending money there and encouraging others that feel the same to do the same. I don't have the power that AT&T does and so if they used this tactic to do things, the same tactic would get a lot farther. Big companies need to demand what they want (within reason of course) using their number one power - their spending power. I just don't think lawsuits work, it may end of fixing this one case of price fixing but it does not discourage others from doing the same thing. #lcdpricefixing
This absolutely outrageous. And furthermore, I am incredibly disappointed in AT&T.
When is there going to be a lawsuit in this country wherein one party sues the pants off of another party and that party actually ends up pants-less? I have been waiting for this my whole life, and yet every time someone goes to sue the pants off someone else, they always, ALWAYS wuss out and accept millions of dollars instead.
I will not be satisfied until I see all of the executives of a major international corporation sans pants! #lcdpricefixing
@OCEntertainment: Inmate No. 61727-054 at Butner Federal Correctional Facility would like you to know that your wish is occurring nightly, and, further, that he hopes that you'll stop wishing for it. #lcdpricefixing
@OCEntertainment: There are many reasons why I hope that does not happen. For one, most of those executives seem to be taller and heavier than I, so I doubt I would be able to profit from any sort of pants-based settlement. #lcdpricefixing
@92BuickLeSabre: Most of the time I just roll on with "oh a company screwed another company over, whatever". But when I actually take the time to think about it, it's absolutely stunning that they casually try and get away with this sort of stuff! #lcdpricefixing
@BergenCountyJC: I would like to know when the wireless carries gouging for their ridiculous messaging packets will come to an end. Tough to feel too much sympathy for AT&T with the hypocrisy beneath their whine. #lcdpricefixing
@aek8: Uncle Google-bags moonlights as the god of the sea. The FTC will be examining this relationship after they've finished up with the telcos. They want to know if, between Google running things on the land and Poseidon in the sea, these two are colluding on taking over the entire planet.
If you guys haven't read the story about how these clowns killed Moto Mobil it's worth a read, I think it was on Wired.
Moto's engineering as of late has been a train wreck, from their Nextel phones, to their DVRs, and even their receivers (cable and vsat). I don't know what the hell has been going on over there for the last 5 years, but put me in as CEO and would clean house because it ISNT just their mobile group it's Moto as a whole.
@UnderLoK: Ahem. Their radio division has done quite well and has continually had great designs. Especially Government and Public Safety with the new APX models they started shipping a couple months back.
Now, is this ditch much like how AT&T ditched their wireless devision to Cingular and then re-acquired it later? Or is this a ditch like Time/Warner struggling to ditch AOL and never look back? It is all about shareholder perceptions, and often times what is perceived as a positive ditch today becomes a brilliant re-purchase a few weeks later.
@CarlinOrmberg: Hawk is the correct word. Hock generally means being pawned (if not a piece of meat, such as the knuckles of a pig), but hawk means to carry around and advertise for sale, generally in a loud/conspicuous manner.
Sony doesn't like to hear about price-cuts, but if they would make the PS3 more competitively priced, start a trend in lowering the msrp of Blu-rays so the sale prices can compete with DVD, and start lowering the price of their Blu-ray players even more they might make a little bit of a gain.
How would a price cut help they lose money on every console? They need to figure out how to cut costs or come out with something inventive. I hope they cut prices on the PS3, then I would consider buying one but it won't help the company.
@jer2110: The way Sony would need to do a price cut is to imitate the XBOX by making the wireless adapter separate, the bluetooth module sold separately, the hard disk separate. Then the initial price is low. If you build up an XBOX with all the extras, it ain't so cheap but lots of people don't need bluetooth etc...
@quidsquid: One of Sony's biggest problems, is they are under the false pretense that Sony branded electronics should be priced at a premium. The company's CEO has repeated stated this on several occasions over the last few years since taking over the company.
Look at the PSP Go for example. It costs Sony less to produce one than it does to produce the PSP 3000, yet they charge $80 more for the PSP Go. When questioned about that, one of Sony's Euro execs pretty much stated the increase in price for the PSP Go was due to the fact that new technology should be priced higher; and that it is expected by the consumer. Maybe someone should question Sony about their definition of new technology, as the PSP tech has been around for five years now.
And true the PS3 is losing money on every console sold, and is probably the only product Sony sells that they honestly are in no position to reduce price on. however that does not mean that all the other consumer electronics products that Sony carries are in the same position. Most CE devices from every CE company on the block, are sold at a markup. Yet Sony's CE devices sell for hundreds and in some case thousands of dollars more than competing products from the likes of Samsung, Toshiba, LG, Panasonic and the list of affordably priced competition is endless.
Sony maybe could get away with premium pricing if they actually offered products that were truly light years ahead of competing products (like their marketing department claims Sony products are). However, when a Korean company like Samsung can make televisions every bit (if not better) as good as Bravia, and sell them for hundreds of dollars less, where is the real incentive to purchase a Sony branded television?
And this was already a problem that was causing Sony major fiscal troubles years before the current, global economic crisis. Now factor in the global recession, the wild currency fluctuations of late, and the written in stone, policy of across the board premium pricing at Sony, and you have a cookbook recipe for a company on the verge of going under sometime in the next five years.
@shpe: Nice work but I'm more interested in knowing how you managed to get 4 icons at the bottom of the screen on your 5800XM instead of just the two for the phone dialer and address book...
10/21/09
My read of the situation is this: AT&T is struggling with insufficient network resources and insufficient monetization of their existing network. All of the telcos would probably love to do away with the new FCC stand on net neutrality. However, only AT&T seems to be acting as if it is in a life-or-death situation because of net neutrality.
If AT&T's competitors feel that they will have more than sufficient network resources and a competitive enough pricing structure to be compliant with the new definition of net neutrality being imposed on them, and they feel that AT&T lacks those resources, they will go ahead and offer unlimited voice and data plans and contractless plans, support Skype and other 3rd party VOIP and messaging systems, etc. In other words, if they think they can get ahead of what people want to do on their network and still make a profit, Verizon and T-Mobile can let the new FCC regulations strangle those cellular providers that can't maintain that level of network usage. And it sure looks like that's what Verizon and T-Mobile are doing.
E.g., taking the projected pricing according to leaked details of T-Mobile's Project Dark: would you rather have an iPhone 3G on AT&T, or a smartphone based on any other platform than the iPhone, more or unlimited minutes, unlimited text, and unlimited data for the SAME PRICE, plus network speeds that are supposed to be OVER TWICE AS FAST as AT&T's projected (not current) network speeds?
In short, AT&T needs cash to compete. It needs a kickback from Barnes & Noble for providing the ability to download miniscule amounts of data to Nooks. It needs its employees to do everything they can to try to stop the FCC. It needs a cash settlement from the LCD industry, which has already been investigated for and found guilty of price fixing in the past.
Muahahaha.
10/21/09
"Insufficient monetization of their existing network?" WTF does that mean? The implication of your statement is that they aren't making the money off the network that they could? Only that doesn't seem consistent with your philosophy. Perhaps you should start working with smaller words and smaller concepts and build up to bigger things. #lcdpricefixing
10/22/09
Here's some reading for you on the general picture:
[www.mobilitysite.com]
[apple.slashdot.org]
[news.cnet.com]
[www.engadget.com]
[tech.slashdot.org]
[arstechnica.com]
I would say that AT&T signed on for the iPhone 3G thinking it had some idea about how many people might buy it, and how much data they would be using. Whatever those numbers were, AT&T was wrong on both counts. Do you think they planned to not make a profit until month 17 of a 24 month contract for an iPhone 3G? "Not making a profit" means "losing money," by the way. AT&T is basically complaining that they hadn't anticipated an average use of 400MB per month per iPhone. They signed on millions of customers for the iPhone 3G; and they play catch up on subsidies and operational costs on each and every two-year contract for 70% of the duration. I call that "insufficient monetization of their network." What do you call it?
10/22/09
First, it is premised on AT&T taking a bunch of steps to increase near term revenues. Only none of the things you cited have any prospect of creating near term revenue. The nook isn't going to generate dick, and probably has the same cycle in terms of payback as the iPhone. The LCD suit will be litigated forever. They will lucky to see any money for several years.
Second, "monetizing assets" means taking assets--things you have--and finding ways to generate money off them for minimal investment. Whatever you are talking about, whatever the hell it is, it isn't "monetizing an asset." You seem to be implying that they need to invest in their network--well they have. To the tune of $38B in the past two years. And will be spending another $18B this year. That isn't monetizing an asset, that is building new infrastructure. Completely different calculus. Monetizing asset = taking paid for asset and realizing revenue. Investment means making capital expenditures and calculating a return.
Third, do I think they planned not to make a profit on the iPhone until well into the contract? Yes, dumbass. It is just another way of saying that the return on their investment took time. The fact that they are making a profit--even after month 17--means they invested money in the iPhone and then got more money back. The fact that their investment had not had a return yet in month 16 doesn't mean they "lost money." Just means it hadn't turned a profit yet--they only "lost money" if the contract ended in mo. 16, and, as we know, its a two year contract. The iPhone carries one of the largest subsidies ever paid by a carrier. You really think, that after paying a $400 subsidy on day 1, it is reasonable to expect them to turn a profit the first month?
Like I said, learn what the words mean. They it becomes easier to put them into coherent order to form logical arguments. #lcdpricefixing
10/22/09
10/21/09
And they're strangely comfortable with it. #lcdpricefixing
10/21/09
"I don't see why not!" #lcdpricefixing
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
Seems like the world falls into a couple different categories. Serious SMSers, who pay almost nothing per SMS. NonSMSers, like me, who pay nothing because we don't use it. OK, I'll admit that there may be people stuck in the twilight... But, we're really talking about less than $5/mo here. Guess I just have a hard time getting worked up over it. #lcdpricefixing
10/21/09
10/21/09
I still fail to understand SMS anyway. My wife SMSs me. It is no more or less difficult, I would think, to write a bloody email. Only you get more characters. And a better guarantee of delivery. And other features. And, virtually every phone is data enabled, or at least email enabled. So someone educate me, why do people give a flying toss about SMS? #lcdpricefixing
10/21/09
10/21/09
It's like the difference between "suspecting" that your co-worker has "forgotten how to make coffee" and "seeing" him "piss in the pot."
And whether they would have passed the savings on is kind of irrelevant, right? If someone embezzled, say, $50K from AT&T, should they get away with it just because it doesn't impact the consumer? #lcdpricefixing
10/21/09
10/21/09
But I'll try, and I will manage to write way too much even though I'm not sure how to respond, which is impressive(!):
a) This is not "price gouging" in the way that you are using it. It is "price fixing." While John does use the word "gouging" he means it to say "unfair price" not "doubling the price to screw people in an emergency."
b) If you are arguing that we shouldn't care about "price fixing" so long as the market pays that price, fine. You are welcome to write your congressperson and let them know. But that is not the law. And it isn't about "a price that is too high." It is about supposed competitors in a market collaborating on a price so that there is no competition. The result is an unfairly inflated price. The crime is the fixing.
c) If you want to know why these things are a problem and why your "market is willing to pay the price" argument is not sound, listen to the This American Life podcast I mentioned. But let me give you a real world flip-side version to show you why your solution makes no sense. Wal-Mart (which, due to its size, operates - legally - as a near monopoly in some markets) approaches small company and says "we would like to stock your product." Small company says "holy crap! Awesome! We will have to expand by 500% to fill the orders, but of course!" Two years later, Wal-Mart says "We've decided we are only going to pay you 80% of what we agreed upon for the last contract." Small supplier can now either (a) go along with Wal-Mart's new price or (b) "stop and negotiate a new price" and in the meantime they lose 80% of their sales and sit on stalled factories and stuffed warehouses while costs accumulate with no incoming revenue.
This is the same thing. AT&T (a) can't go elsewhere, because there is price fixing! and (b) can't simply stop a huge line of their business and say "Okay, we will just sit here and make no revenue on this while I sue you in court."
d) How do you have any idea whether or not AT&T was or was not cooperating with the criminal investigation all along? They may well have instigated it. Procedurally, this is how it works (for a number of cost, proof, court efficiency, and evidentiary reasons) - criminal trial goes first, civil trials follow. It, almost certainly, has nothing to do with AT&T not realizing there was a problem and then taking advantage of the situation. #lcdpricefixing
10/22/09
10/21/09
When is there going to be a lawsuit in this country wherein one party sues the pants off of another party and that party actually ends up pants-less? I have been waiting for this my whole life, and yet every time someone goes to sue the pants off someone else, they always, ALWAYS wuss out and accept millions of dollars instead.
I will not be satisfied until I see all of the executives of a major international corporation sans pants! #lcdpricefixing
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
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10/12/09
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10/12/09
09/12/09
09/12/09
Moto's engineering as of late has been a train wreck, from their Nextel phones, to their DVRs, and even their receivers (cable and vsat). I don't know what the hell has been going on over there for the last 5 years, but put me in as CEO and would clean house because it ISNT just their mobile group it's Moto as a whole.
09/12/09
09/14/09
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09/12/09
07/30/09
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07/30/09
@quidsquid:
07/30/09
07/30/09
Look at the PSP Go for example. It costs Sony less to produce one than it does to produce the PSP 3000, yet they charge $80 more for the PSP Go. When questioned about that, one of Sony's Euro execs pretty much stated the increase in price for the PSP Go was due to the fact that new technology should be priced higher; and that it is expected by the consumer. Maybe someone should question Sony about their definition of new technology, as the PSP tech has been around for five years now.
And true the PS3 is losing money on every console sold, and is probably the only product Sony sells that they honestly are in no position to reduce price on. however that does not mean that all the other consumer electronics products that Sony carries are in the same position. Most CE devices from every CE company on the block, are sold at a markup. Yet Sony's CE devices sell for hundreds and in some case thousands of dollars more than competing products from the likes of Samsung, Toshiba, LG, Panasonic and the list of affordably priced competition is endless.
Sony maybe could get away with premium pricing if they actually offered products that were truly light years ahead of competing products (like their marketing department claims Sony products are). However, when a Korean company like Samsung can make televisions every bit (if not better) as good as Bravia, and sell them for hundreds of dollars less, where is the real incentive to purchase a Sony branded television?
And this was already a problem that was causing Sony major fiscal troubles years before the current, global economic crisis. Now factor in the global recession, the wild currency fluctuations of late, and the written in stone, policy of across the board premium pricing at Sony, and you have a cookbook recipe for a company on the verge of going under sometime in the next five years.
07/16/09
look what I have done:
more here: http://work.shpe.ro/?id2=00030011
07/16/09
05/15/09
05/15/09