The other week, we explained how Apple influences a ton of what goes on in tech by shaping industry-wide standards. This week, we're gonna look at Microsoft, and what's it's done with standards.
haha. Omg. nice opening sentence.
"The other week, we did this amazing article about how fucking amazing apple is. So since some of you complained that fucking amazing apple weren't the only computer company out there, we decided to do a follow up article on Microsoft, which is the biggest rotting turd on top of the decaying compost pile that is called the computer industry".
how did you manage to miss .doc and .docx? especially with all the song and dance about the latter becoming an iso standard and all the corruption behind that?
@Gonzie: Agreed. Doc and DocX are two horrid standards, especially in an environment where all computer labs have Office 2007, but all teacher machines have Office 2003.
... and Giz, can you axe the alcohol ads on the main pages? I got kicked out of a lab today because of our zero-tolerance towards alcohol and other drugs.
Ha! Just minutes after this came up in my feed reader, I get this little number from Ars: [arstechnica.com]
Granted, there's still tons of debate about it. But for Microsoft's part, putting in their support of the video and audio tags for the HTML5 standard is at least a step in the right direction. I wouldn't expect a patch to come out for IE8 next week, but, according to them, whatever issues they have with the multimedia tags, they intend to work through it.
What is the question that this giz explains addresses?
I feel like it should be "Dear Giz, can you give me a few reasons or examples why Microsoft is more closed and stupid in regards to standards than Apple?"
@Optimus-Prime: This article isn't really about actual standards that Microsoft helped develop. WMA and IE are just initiatives with lackluster success, and there's a lot more to the computing world than movies and pictures.
It may be less exciting to paint Microsoft as a good guy once in a while, but they are directly responsible for a lot thanks to their long partnerships with IBM and Intel: DOS, FAT, USB, DirectX, etc.
@spannu: There is big difference between "a standard" and "the most used thing". Microsoft is huge in computer business so naturally they have tons of the other, but they have never seemed to care about the standards. MS has historically been horrible at playing with others, though they have shown change in that attitude lately.
@ara: There's also a big difference between a standard and what's actually useful and needed.
A lot of what Microsoft has done over the years came from the fact that most standards bodies are far, far too slow to keep up with market demand - and that for the most part, there really isn't much of a penalty for not complying with standards if there's no interoperability issues.
Microsoft doesn't care if you want to interop Word - that's not really their problem: it's the file format for their word processor - why on earth would they have a need to let other apps work with it? That's just helping the competition.
The Web really was the first (and in some ways, is the ONLY) case where interop really becomes an issue. But while we're on it: how come no one dumps on Adobe for not opening Photoshop files? Or for having made Postscript and to a lesser degree PDF files licensed technology for so long?
And how about Apple with Firewire (which IS a standard) and their now infamous 25c per device fee?
It's easy to cherry pick but the fact remains that this is a common practice across all companies. Microsoft just happens to be the biggest and most visible one.
@Shamoononon: I shave my legs.: Two notable examples are Grand Central Dispatch and mini displayport. Apple released GCD to the open source community, and mini displayport is an open free standard, so no licensing fees involved.
@Kaiser-Machead: So what. That's not going to do anybody much good. What, Microsoft is going to use it? How does that make anything a non propitiatory format?
@Kaiser-Machead: Don't forget WebKit for Safari. Or even the whole Unix core for Mac OS X for that matter. AAC is pretty open now that tracks from iTunes no longer contain DRM.
@Shamoononon: I shave my legs.: It isn't so much about opening up their tech (which they do do), it's more about supporting industry standards, instead of trying to force their own, or break existing standards (or simply ignore them), which are things Microsoft is very guilty of. (Don't get me started on MS's implementation of TCP/IP in Active Directory networks, or even the bastardization of x.500 that Active Directory is in the first place.)
It's funny how, even to this day, people accuse Apple of using proprietary technology and think MS is more "standard", when historically the exact opposite is true.
@cabjf: Wrong. Webkit started off as open source from KDE developers (Konqueror Browser's KHTML Library). Apple didn't open it up, they started with an open source kit and expanded upon that. Mac OS X was built on an UNIX core; they didn't open anything up. As for AAC, it's just less annoying to use now; the format isn't "open" or anything.
@Shamoononon: I shave my legs.: Whether or not it achieves mass adoption is not so much the point than that Apple still opened the tech as an open standard for everyone to use. Mini displayport has been adopted by Dell, and will likely make its way to other brands.
@Kaiser-Machead: You're right, but that still doesn't change the fact that Apple specifically didn't open or close anything then. It was an already used format standardized by ISO and IEC.
Historically the opposite is true... what planet are you from?
All I've got to say is AppleTalk...
As a unix person who dealt with LDAP way, way back when (10 years ago against Irix 6.2 machines) I've never really messed much with AD but I can say historically there's a reason. X.500 didn't support a lot of features (features especially needed compared to Novel) that were needed. MS was trying to push into Novell networks against their directory server, which also is a bastardization of X.500 but Novell was used pretty much everywhere in business and X.500 was used hardly anywhere. MS did the same thing and extended X500.
Here's what Microsoft does, if a standard doesn't do all the stuff they want it to do, they make it close and extend it. Other people (often grumpy unix guys like myself) after a while finally get a new standard out that does what MS has extended but often in a different way that is more efficient/cleaner. Instead of switching to that new method, MS continues doing their own thing.
Apple just does things to do them, doesn't even try to be close to an original standard and extend it they go do their own thing... which sometimes is pretty damn good (OSX) and sometimes is completely annoying (AppleTalk)
But in all fairness, back then there wasn't really a network protocol standard. Sure, TCP/IP existed, but this was before in-house networks were connected to the internet. Everyone had their own protocol back then: Unix had TCP/IP, Novell had IPX, MS had Netbeui, and Apple had AppleTalk.
@Hank Scorpio: But that's kind of the point. Back when IE came out (and Netscape too), the HTML standard was horribly inadequate. Both browsers supported the base - but then added their own extensions. DIFFERENT extensions at that.
Then IE became the dominant player and W3C/IETF decided to finally get off their butts and implement some of the extensions in the HTML standard - but did it differently than the dominant player.
That left Microsoft in a weird position. Do they break compatibility with all the sites who used their extensions or do they ignore a standard that at the time, no one used?
Fastforward to today and we have a lot of people who have no clue as to the history of these events who are yelling at MSFT do to it *their* way.
But combine appletalk + localtalk and you have an unholly alliance, where (at the time I was working with them) 10base ethernet was a common standard. If I remember right you also had to use some crazy specialized serial cable because you of course couldn't use a standard rs232 like everybody else for modems
@TheWerewolf - : The problem with IE is not the proprietary extensions. The problem is that IE6 can not render the most basic CSS and is often mystified by javascript. To say it was about proprietary extensions is like saying developers were upset about the care Microsoft lavished on a cupholder while its car had only three wheels. Developers don't care about the cupholder; just add the other wheel already. And Microsoft is still causing problems by continuing to distribute IE6 on netbooks. Oh yeah. Couple of weeks ago a friend showed me the netbook he had just purchased, running Windows XP and sure enough, there was IE6.
09/17/09
haha. Omg. nice opening sentence.
"The other week, we did this amazing article about how fucking amazing apple is. So since some of you complained that fucking amazing apple weren't the only computer company out there, we decided to do a follow up article on Microsoft, which is the biggest rotting turd on top of the decaying compost pile that is called the computer industry".
09/17/09
09/17/09
... and Giz, can you axe the alcohol ads on the main pages? I got kicked out of a lab today because of our zero-tolerance towards alcohol and other drugs.
09/17/09
Granted, there's still tons of debate about it. But for Microsoft's part, putting in their support of the video and audio tags for the HTML5 standard is at least a step in the right direction. I wouldn't expect a patch to come out for IE8 next week, but, according to them, whatever issues they have with the multimedia tags, they intend to work through it.
All the better, I say.
09/17/09
I feel like it should be "Dear Giz, can you give me a few reasons or examples why Microsoft is more closed and stupid in regards to standards than Apple?"
09/17/09
It may be less exciting to paint Microsoft as a good guy once in a while, but they are directly responsible for a lot thanks to their long partnerships with IBM and Intel: DOS, FAT, USB, DirectX, etc.
09/17/09
09/17/09
A lot of what Microsoft has done over the years came from the fact that most standards bodies are far, far too slow to keep up with market demand - and that for the most part, there really isn't much of a penalty for not complying with standards if there's no interoperability issues.
Microsoft doesn't care if you want to interop Word - that's not really their problem: it's the file format for their word processor - why on earth would they have a need to let other apps work with it? That's just helping the competition.
The Web really was the first (and in some ways, is the ONLY) case where interop really becomes an issue. But while we're on it: how come no one dumps on Adobe for not opening Photoshop files? Or for having made Postscript and to a lesser degree PDF files licensed technology for so long?
And how about Apple with Firewire (which IS a standard) and their now infamous 25c per device fee?
It's easy to cherry pick but the fact remains that this is a common practice across all companies. Microsoft just happens to be the biggest and most visible one.
09/17/09
09/17/09
09/17/09
09/17/09
09/17/09
09/17/09
It's funny how, even to this day, people accuse Apple of using proprietary technology and think MS is more "standard", when historically the exact opposite is true.
09/17/09
Shamoon? *suspicious look*.....Do you know anything about this?
09/17/09
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09/17/09
09/17/09
09/17/09
Historically the opposite is true... what planet are you from?
All I've got to say is AppleTalk...
As a unix person who dealt with LDAP way, way back when (10 years ago against Irix 6.2 machines) I've never really messed much with AD but I can say historically there's a reason. X.500 didn't support a lot of features (features especially needed compared to Novel) that were needed. MS was trying to push into Novell networks against their directory server, which also is a bastardization of X.500 but Novell was used pretty much everywhere in business and X.500 was used hardly anywhere. MS did the same thing and extended X500.
Here's what Microsoft does, if a standard doesn't do all the stuff they want it to do, they make it close and extend it. Other people (often grumpy unix guys like myself) after a while finally get a new standard out that does what MS has extended but often in a different way that is more efficient/cleaner. Instead of switching to that new method, MS continues doing their own thing.
Apple just does things to do them, doesn't even try to be close to an original standard and extend it they go do their own thing... which sometimes is pretty damn good (OSX) and sometimes is completely annoying (AppleTalk)
09/17/09
But in all fairness, back then there wasn't really a network protocol standard. Sure, TCP/IP existed, but this was before in-house networks were connected to the internet. Everyone had their own protocol back then: Unix had TCP/IP, Novell had IPX, MS had Netbeui, and Apple had AppleTalk.
09/17/09
Then IE became the dominant player and W3C/IETF decided to finally get off their butts and implement some of the extensions in the HTML standard - but did it differently than the dominant player.
That left Microsoft in a weird position. Do they break compatibility with all the sites who used their extensions or do they ignore a standard that at the time, no one used?
Fastforward to today and we have a lot of people who have no clue as to the history of these events who are yelling at MSFT do to it *their* way.
09/18/09
But combine appletalk + localtalk and you have an unholly alliance, where (at the time I was working with them) 10base ethernet was a common standard. If I remember right you also had to use some crazy specialized serial cable because you of course couldn't use a standard rs232 like everybody else for modems
09/18/09
09/17/09