The level of Apple fanboyism in these comments is off the scale.
In the end everyone copies from each other at some point. Personally I don't think Win7 resembles OSX much but that's just my opinion.
Also to pre-empt any snarky Apple fan spinning that opinion into something negative I don't think that it being dissimilar is a bad thing. Windows has its perks over OSX and vice versa, neither is unanimously superior so get over your damn god-OS complexes already. #windows7mac
@Odin: As someone who almost exclusively uses Apple products, I couldn't agree more. These kinds of borrowing elements from one to another are pretty much inevitable. It can only benefit the consumer that these companies understand what the customer likes and doesn't like and try to implement the best options available to the user. I also don't think W7 looks much like OS X, and the elements that do seem to be implemented better. I think a lot of this bashing W7 is to make Mac fanboys feel as if their OS is so superior that everyone copies it, meanwhile Snow Leopard doesn't appear to have so much revolutionary appeal to it. #windows7mac
@s8ist:
Unfortunately the majority (or at least the vocal majority) of Apple users sees OSX as their Messiah and defend it zealously. Anyone who doesn't worship it is a heathen and an idiot. It's a stupid way to think. There's no perfect OS, OSX has its flaws just like everything else.
You use what you like or what suits you, just because you like it doesn't automatically invalidate the competition. I'm primarily a Windows user, always have been and probably always will. Why? It's not because I believe Windows is the saviour of all mankind and Microsoft can do no wrong and that Apple is the devil. It's because it suits the things I do with my computer and I like it. As a gamer and a .NET developer I just can't see myself using anything else as my primary system.
I don't hate OSX because I don't use it. I don't think it's bad because it doesn't suit what I do. It's definitely a comparable OS but it's not incredibly better than what I currently use.
The level of Apple fanboyism out there though borders on zealotry and it's crazy sometimes. I mean before I came to Giz I thought Windows users ragging on Mac users were bad. Turns out the reverse is a whole lot worse. I can barely bring myself to look at any of the comments on Microsoft articles on Giz because they're just filled with seething hatred and bias.
Take the recent article on the Microsoft Courier. I found it to be an attractive interesting looking gadget, well worth my interest. When I looked at the comments though, the majority were just about how Microsoft sucked and how the Apple tablet Courier.
It's bizarre. I personally couldn't give two shits about the Apple tablet right now. Why? Because it's an Apple product? No! Because it doesn't even have a substantial existance. All it is right now is a bunch of fan made concept images, a couple of patents and a smattering of rumours on the wind. It's a freaking phantom of a product. Yet there are people out there willing to call an interesting and infinitely more substantial device rubbish because of it. It's mind blowing.
This is directly addressing any over zealous Apple fanboy that reads this:
I've since reconsidered the thing I dislike most about Apple (that's not to say that I hate Apple, I just have things I don't like about them and this is one of them), and it's the fanboys. Your close mindedness, ass kissery and superiority complexes bring not only shame upon yourselves as human beings but shame upon the company and products you adore. Congratulations, you're a plague upon what you like most. Morons. #windows7mac
@Odin: I largely agree. I think this whole thing as approaching a commensalism argument. In most things, if something is demonstrably superior in function it tends to be adopted universally. When M-B introduced antilock brakes on their S-class (lo these many years ago), everyone else scrambled to adopt the technology. Where they copying Mercedes? No, it just works better. I've had Mac and PC machines for years, and the OS's are becoming more and more similar. As the evolution continues, any differences between them will be largely cosmetic. Human function determines OS function, not the other way around. And whether you use Apple or MS, we're all (most of us) human. #windows7mac
@Bokusatsu_Tenshi: The LH article says it still works perfectly with the hackintosh they detailed how to make a little while ago that had a C2D in it. The Giz article is referencing netbook hackintoshes and Atom support. #macosx1062
@Bokusatsu_Tenshi: I'm guessing that the hackintoshes mentioned on Giz are Atom powered netbooks, whilst the Lifehacker article is on Intel Core 2 Duos and I7s. #macosx1062
Why doesn't Apple just overprice a license for anyone to do as they wish? Didn't Apple have a 'clone' machine program back in the 90s where OEMs could license the Mac OS on their own hardware?
They could charge $150 or so for an 'Intel Machine' license compared to the $120 or so for a regular license [I don't mean the $30 Snow Leopard 'update'] for Apple-branded computers and make you agree at the time of sale that Apple is not responsible if it blows up your PC or if it makes you shit your pants.
@dragon: ONE: I wholeheartedly agree; however, that would mean that Apple would have to start building a more robust kernel, which would begin to affect install size, boot time, etc. Not only that, but they would also begin to face some of the issues MS faces with 3rd party drivers causing BSODs, or in the case of OS X, kernel panics, because people would be building computers with what they view as the best parts. In short, it would undermine many of the supposed ''advantages'' Apple has over Windows and Apple would lose their ability to make smug ads. #macosx1062
@Kaiser-Machead: To be honest, I'd rather be running 7 on a netbook anyways. I personally hate notebooks. But... if I had one I'd want it to be running it's native OS. 7 runs great on notebooks, why change it?
@Kaiser-Machead: I'm still hackintoshing my dv10; however, my original intent of making it a single OS computer is out the window. I will now be booting W7 and OS X on it instead of just OS X. #macosx1062
This is a slightly arbitrary and useless test in my mind.
In my mind, the main advantage of Macs is that the hardware and software are both designed in the same place, and are designed to work well with one another - ie, software designed with hardware in mind, hardware with software, etc. There's no guesswork about how OSX will work on any given system, since Apple controls both. Obviously, OSX should be able to outperform any other OS on Apple-built hardware. That's the point.
Read my previous posts and you'll know I love me some Apple - but I'm just trying to fight bias here... Win7 shouldn't be set up to look inferior when the deck is obviously stacked in OSX's favor in this test. #snowleopard
Ok so let me get this straight. All the rabid "im anti apple fanboy and i dont even know why" people who always say that Macs are the same hardware as windows machines just with an apple tax are now saying that the hardware is magical specially made Apple hardware that is somehow "optimized"?
Which is it? Which lie are you going to believe the next time you say it? #snowleopard
@Eulatos: I'm rabid in terms of avoiding bias, that's something grad school has drilled into me time and time again. That said, I agree with you for the most part, though there are a few things, on both sides, that I think should be addressed in the tests, for both sides.
On both sides:
- Why didn't they use identical HDDs? Might you see differences between the performances of the two HDDs?
On the Apple front:
- Was the COD4 optimized for Snow Leopard or was it ported over? If it was ported over, it gives real world results, but it doesn't reveal the real capabilities of Snow Leopard in terms of gaming.
On the Windows front:
- They used two different versions of Quicktime, Quicktime 7 and Quicktime X. Why couldn't they use the same version on both? Additionally, why couldn't they use an open source program that is optimized for both OSs (i.e. Handbrake)? What effect did the differences between the versions have and what differences are present from the fact that Quicktime is optimized for Snow Leopard and ported over to Windows?
- iTunes faces the same optimization question as Quicktime does. Anyone who uses iTunes on a Windows PC will tell you how bad it is compared to how well it runs on a Mac.
- What effect does EFI vs. BIOS have? Windows is typically booted from BIOS rather than EFI and is, as such, optimized for BIOS even though EFI is the better of the two systems.
- What effect does the fact that boot camp is necessary to boot the computer have on boot times and shut down times (though this one I would not be surprised if, at least, the shut down times were spot on)?
- The battery times seem really far off to me, what to degree is this due to drivers? Snow Leopard should get a longer battery life due to how it accesses the HDD, but that seems like quite a severe difference.
I'm sorry that most the questions lie on the Windows side, but when most of the software and hardware is Apple based, it makes things harder to avoid doing so. Also, why didn't Giz mention the Cinebench benchmarks? #snowleopard
@Eulatos: No, the argument would be that Apple has optimized the software to eek out as much as possible from that specific hardware, whereas Microsoft is forced to make an OS that will work with a multitude of hardware configurations.
It's not much of a secret that just doing a basic Windows install is not going to give you the best possible experience, in order to get that you're going to need optimize it for your particular hardware configuration. What you get with a basic install is the best experience across the most hardware. Apple doesn't have this problem, that's the huge advantage of controlling both hardware and software, it's also why they don't offer OSX as a standalone OS like Windows. #snowleopard
Ahaha.... you windows fanboys. You're just as bad as us. I'd really be interested to see which run's better on a netbook though. From what I've heard 7 runs fan-freaking-tastic on netbooks, but Apple did a lot of refining. Hmm. Battlemodo Giz?
Not only is the test on Apple hardware but two of the four programs are Apple software that we already know are programmed better for the Mac. Could they do the test with Photoshop or Firefox or any of the other countless pieces of software that run on both platforms? Not that it will necessarily make a difference, but it would certainly remove a potential bias in the results.
"... during the tests, the computer had the following software installed: iTunes 9, QuickTime, Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare, and Cinebench R10 ..."#snowleopard
@stevenearhart: Well Windows 7 Ultimate is 300 bucks so you're down to $700 right off the top. I'm sure you can still get something good though.
My experience in buying dell hardware (4-5 years ago in an IT department) was that when you upgrade everything--screens, hard drives, processors, ram, etc... you end up in the same price range as a Mac laptop. The major benefit with Dell used to be their Gold support because a tech would show up at your place the next day and fix your problem.
I would like to see the matchup as well though. #snowleopard
@Vroomtrap: Yes, because Dell obviously doesn't include any form of operating system when they sell computers. If you compare a Dell and a MacBook, you won't have to figure in the cost of the OS. #snowleopard
@Identity (reclamation): I was just saying that you'd have to factor in Vista Ultimate. Just for kicks I went and spec'd out a 13 inch Vostro with similar specs to a Macbook and it did comes cheaper and more powerful. $857 for the Vostro vs $999 for the Macbook. Vostro had 4GB ram (MB: 2GB), a 320 GB hard drive (MB: 160 GB), and a 2.20 Dual Core (MB: 2.13). So it seems like the Dell is a better deal. That's all with 15 months of free Norton Internet Security. So you're right, the Dell is probably the better buy. If you pushed the Dell up to $1000, you'd be way ahead of the MacBook.
I use at least 3 OS's 5 times a week. Windows 7 RC 1, Windows XP, OS X 10.6, Redhat Enterprise Linux 4.x, Redhat Enterprise Linux 5.3 and from all that use, there is a unquantifiable value that simplicity, stability, and built in services I get with using OSX.
By the time I'm finished downloading and installing a pdf viewer, print to pdf document writer, subversion, python, apache web server, color meter, firewall application, Cygwin, putty, FTP client, Music editing software, decent simple web software, good movie editing software, CD/DVD burning software, Screen Recording software, Macro software, partition magic, (I could probably find 20 more software tools that come installed on Macs out of the box that you'd have to download on Windows) I'll have saved $150 bucks and spent hours, maybe days just setting up my machine.
What you save in money (which you can make back) you'll lose in time (which you can never get back).
@Vroomtrap: I apologize for my comment. I get what you are saying now. And it is very true that Mac computers come pretty nicely loaded up with software. My current main computer is a Mac, although I am still fairly excited for Win7. I'm planning on building my own computer for it.
And yes, I would love to see a matchup based on a few factors. I think I will actually test this out. I'm really curious to see how the OS will compare in a test that I know suits what I use my computer for. #snowleopard
@Identity (reclamation): Yeah, I'm actually one of the few people in my office that actually likes Windows 7. I run it on my development laptop and it's been great so far. I'll probably end up running int in a Virtual Machine though. When you test it out, i'd like to know the results. #snowleopard
@Vroomtrap: Yeah, I like it also. I'm not sure how I will do the tests yet, and it will probably be a while before I do them, but I will definitely share the results.
However, I like Mac OS better for certain things and Windows better for certain things, and no matter which comes out on top with my tests, I'll still definitely use both.
I would do just a few simple tests right now, but I am running RC1 and not the final version. I want to be as scientific as possible. #snowleopard
11/12/09
In the end everyone copies from each other at some point. Personally I don't think Win7 resembles OSX much but that's just my opinion.
Also to pre-empt any snarky Apple fan spinning that opinion into something negative I don't think that it being dissimilar is a bad thing. Windows has its perks over OSX and vice versa, neither is unanimously superior so get over your damn god-OS complexes already. #windows7mac
11/12/09
Now, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I think that's something that we can all agree happened.
11/12/09
11/12/09
Unfortunately the majority (or at least the vocal majority) of Apple users sees OSX as their Messiah and defend it zealously. Anyone who doesn't worship it is a heathen and an idiot. It's a stupid way to think. There's no perfect OS, OSX has its flaws just like everything else.
You use what you like or what suits you, just because you like it doesn't automatically invalidate the competition. I'm primarily a Windows user, always have been and probably always will. Why? It's not because I believe Windows is the saviour of all mankind and Microsoft can do no wrong and that Apple is the devil. It's because it suits the things I do with my computer and I like it. As a gamer and a .NET developer I just can't see myself using anything else as my primary system.
I don't hate OSX because I don't use it. I don't think it's bad because it doesn't suit what I do. It's definitely a comparable OS but it's not incredibly better than what I currently use.
The level of Apple fanboyism out there though borders on zealotry and it's crazy sometimes. I mean before I came to Giz I thought Windows users ragging on Mac users were bad. Turns out the reverse is a whole lot worse. I can barely bring myself to look at any of the comments on Microsoft articles on Giz because they're just filled with seething hatred and bias.
Take the recent article on the Microsoft Courier. I found it to be an attractive interesting looking gadget, well worth my interest. When I looked at the comments though, the majority were just about how Microsoft sucked and how the Apple tablet Courier.
It's bizarre. I personally couldn't give two shits about the Apple tablet right now. Why? Because it's an Apple product? No! Because it doesn't even have a substantial existance. All it is right now is a bunch of fan made concept images, a couple of patents and a smattering of rumours on the wind. It's a freaking phantom of a product. Yet there are people out there willing to call an interesting and infinitely more substantial device rubbish because of it. It's mind blowing.
This is directly addressing any over zealous Apple fanboy that reads this:
I've since reconsidered the thing I dislike most about Apple (that's not to say that I hate Apple, I just have things I don't like about them and this is one of them), and it's the fanboys. Your close mindedness, ass kissery and superiority complexes bring not only shame upon yourselves as human beings but shame upon the company and products you adore. Congratulations, you're a plague upon what you like most. Morons. #windows7mac
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/11/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
Taken from my RSS Reader.
Ok guys, someone care to explain? #macosx1062
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
They could charge $150 or so for an 'Intel Machine' license compared to the $120 or so for a regular license [I don't mean the $30 Snow Leopard 'update'] for Apple-branded computers and make you agree at the time of sale that Apple is not responsible if it blows up your PC or if it makes you shit your pants.
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
Least we forget: [oreilly.com] #snowleopard
10/17/09
In my mind, the main advantage of Macs is that the hardware and software are both designed in the same place, and are designed to work well with one another - ie, software designed with hardware in mind, hardware with software, etc. There's no guesswork about how OSX will work on any given system, since Apple controls both. Obviously, OSX should be able to outperform any other OS on Apple-built hardware. That's the point.
Read my previous posts and you'll know I love me some Apple - but I'm just trying to fight bias here... Win7 shouldn't be set up to look inferior when the deck is obviously stacked in OSX's favor in this test. #snowleopard
10/16/09
Which is it? Which lie are you going to believe the next time you say it? #snowleopard
10/16/09
On both sides:
- Why didn't they use identical HDDs? Might you see differences between the performances of the two HDDs?
On the Apple front:
- Was the COD4 optimized for Snow Leopard or was it ported over? If it was ported over, it gives real world results, but it doesn't reveal the real capabilities of Snow Leopard in terms of gaming.
On the Windows front:
- They used two different versions of Quicktime, Quicktime 7 and Quicktime X. Why couldn't they use the same version on both? Additionally, why couldn't they use an open source program that is optimized for both OSs (i.e. Handbrake)? What effect did the differences between the versions have and what differences are present from the fact that Quicktime is optimized for Snow Leopard and ported over to Windows?
- iTunes faces the same optimization question as Quicktime does. Anyone who uses iTunes on a Windows PC will tell you how bad it is compared to how well it runs on a Mac.
- What effect does EFI vs. BIOS have? Windows is typically booted from BIOS rather than EFI and is, as such, optimized for BIOS even though EFI is the better of the two systems.
- What effect does the fact that boot camp is necessary to boot the computer have on boot times and shut down times (though this one I would not be surprised if, at least, the shut down times were spot on)?
- The battery times seem really far off to me, what to degree is this due to drivers? Snow Leopard should get a longer battery life due to how it accesses the HDD, but that seems like quite a severe difference.
I'm sorry that most the questions lie on the Windows side, but when most of the software and hardware is Apple based, it makes things harder to avoid doing so. Also, why didn't Giz mention the Cinebench benchmarks? #snowleopard
10/16/09
It's not much of a secret that just doing a basic Windows install is not going to give you the best possible experience, in order to get that you're going to need optimize it for your particular hardware configuration. What you get with a basic install is the best experience across the most hardware. Apple doesn't have this problem, that's the huge advantage of controlling both hardware and software, it's also why they don't offer OSX as a standalone OS like Windows. #snowleopard
10/16/09
10/16/09
10/16/09
"... during the tests, the computer had the following software installed: iTunes 9, QuickTime, Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare, and Cinebench R10 ..." #snowleopard
10/16/09
10/16/09
My experience in buying dell hardware (4-5 years ago in an IT department) was that when you upgrade everything--screens, hard drives, processors, ram, etc... you end up in the same price range as a Mac laptop. The major benefit with Dell used to be their Gold support because a tech would show up at your place the next day and fix your problem.
I would like to see the matchup as well though. #snowleopard
10/16/09
10/16/09
I use at least 3 OS's 5 times a week. Windows 7 RC 1, Windows XP, OS X 10.6, Redhat Enterprise Linux 4.x, Redhat Enterprise Linux 5.3 and from all that use, there is a unquantifiable value that simplicity, stability, and built in services I get with using OSX.
By the time I'm finished downloading and installing a pdf viewer, print to pdf document writer, subversion, python, apache web server, color meter, firewall application, Cygwin, putty, FTP client, Music editing software, decent simple web software, good movie editing software, CD/DVD burning software, Screen Recording software, Macro software, partition magic, (I could probably find 20 more software tools that come installed on Macs out of the box that you'd have to download on Windows) I'll have saved $150 bucks and spent hours, maybe days just setting up my machine.
What you save in money (which you can make back) you'll lose in time (which you can never get back).
10/17/09
And yes, I would love to see a matchup based on a few factors. I think I will actually test this out. I'm really curious to see how the OS will compare in a test that I know suits what I use my computer for. #snowleopard
10/18/09
10/18/09
However, I like Mac OS better for certain things and Windows better for certain things, and no matter which comes out on top with my tests, I'll still definitely use both.
I would do just a few simple tests right now, but I am running RC1 and not the final version. I want to be as scientific as possible. #snowleopard