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New York, 11:18 PM
Wed Nov 11
57 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of B3ND3R B3ND3R
    11/07/09

    In reply to BlueBeat’s Innovative Defense That Will Never Hold Up in Court
    *Deep breath before long-winded explanation*

    There are actually 2 rights associated with a recorded song:

    1. Master Right, or Phonoright (p) - this is the physical recording of the song. Typically owned by the record label (EMI, in this case).

    2. Copyright (c) - this is the music and lyrics . Typically owned by the publisher/song writer (mostly Sony, in this case).

    EMI generally doesn't license the Beatles' Master Rights. But...

    ...this is where it gets tricky.

    US law allows for a compulsory mechanical license to be granted without the publisher's explicit consent, provided the royalties are properly paid and accounted for.

    In other words, anyone can go out and cover any song that has been released to the public, provided they get a license from the US Copyright Office. The publisher doesn't get to say "no" - it is compulsory on the part of the publisher (they HAVE to grant it) and the rate is statutory (set by Congress - currently $0.091/use).

    As an example, look at how many thousands of covers there are of "Come Together". Neither EMI nor Sony nor The Beatles "approved" many of those covers - but they are legal.

    An .mp3 is generally considered eligible for a compulsory mechanical license, even though there is no physical media involved. This is where it gets dicey, because there are very specific things you can and can not do with an .mp3 when you license it in this matter. For example, it can't be streamed, it can't be synchronized with moving images, it can't be used for karaoke, etc. In any case...

    IF the recordings were truly created by him (i.e., he did not sample the Master Recording but rather used his computer to recreate the recording) then he didn't need a Master Use license from EMI and...

    IF all he did with these new recordings were sell them via a physical media or via a non-interactive download and...

    IF he paid Sony/ATV (the publisher) the statutory compulsory license rate (currently $0.091 per use)...

    THEN he has a case. His defense would argue that is no different than doing a cover, and they would have precedent on their side.

    Granted, it's not a case I would want to argue, but it's not like he doesn't have a defense.

    OK, that's probably way more than anyone wants to know about US Copyright Law and music licensing. #riaa
     Reply
    Bertone77 promoted this comment B3ND3R was starred B3ND3R was unstarred
    Image of syko21 syko21
    11/07/09

    @B3ND3R: You have disgraced your namesake by being helpful, polite, and refraining from using any of the following words "Bite" "my" "shiny" "metal" "ass" #riaa
     Reply
    Mike Zuniga: That was Unexpected promoted this comment syko21 was starred syko21 was unstarred
    Image of JDickson87 JDickson87
    11/07/09

    @B3ND3R: That was a very informative, and useful, smart comment.

    Wait, is this the internet I'm used to? Get out of here! :)

    Seriously though, thanks for that explanation, that is interesting. Nice to have it laid out in plain english, too. #riaa
     Reply
    Mike Zuniga: That was Unexpected promoted this comment JDickson87 was starred JDickson87 was unstarred
    Image of spivak26 spivak26
    11/07/09

    @B3ND3R: that was actually quite interesting! Thank you for sharing your intelligence #riaa
     Reply
    Mike Zuniga: That was Unexpected promoted this comment spivak26 was starred spivak26 was unstarred
    Image of iringsburevo iringsburevo
    11/07/09

    @B3ND3R: Excellent explanation of some of the issues.

    I think Hank will lose, as Bertone77 below states, because what he created was a derivative work. There's not even a creativity aspect to what he did - he started with the originals, processed them and developed something new. Classic derivative work.
     Reply
    Mike Zuniga: That was Unexpected promoted this comment iringsburevo was starred iringsburevo was unstarred
    Image of SkirMernet SkirMernet
    11/07/09

    @B3ND3R: for once, someone makes sense... major kudos on the clear and concise and non-biased explanation #riaa
     Reply
    Mike Zuniga: That was Unexpected promoted this comment SkirMernet was starred SkirMernet was unstarred
    Image of emorottie emorottie
    11/07/09

    @B3ND3R: Interesting interpretation actually! The only thing I found an issue with that there is one copyright only, which belongs to the original composers. This is denoted by (c). The publishing rights "(p)" are a part of the intellectual properly law and can be granted to certain parties, and also full ownership can be given to another party. This is done during the copyright registration.
    This caveat is also why you may see a song is a registered to the record company or publisher instead of the artist themselves. #riaa
     Reply
    Mike Zuniga: That was Unexpected promoted this comment emorottie was starred emorottie was unstarred
    Image of B3ND3R B3ND3R
    11/07/09

    @emorottie: Without getting too far into it... ha ha!

    There are 2 rights associated with a song that has been recorded:

    1. The copyright is designated as (c) and belongs to the author, which is typically the songwriter(s).

    The songwriter(s) assigns a portion of this copyright to a music publisher in return for the publisher exploiting (in a good way) the copyright.

    There is always only one (c) per song. Period. But the (c) only covers the words and music, not the Sound Recording (SR) or "Master" recording or phonoright (p).

    2. The (p) covers the actual recorded interpretation of the song. It belongs typically to the record label, although artists who are powerful enough can negotiate to own the (p) in their recording contracts. There can be multiple (p) but only one per recording.

    I know that sounds confusing, but here is an example:

    "Come Together"
    writers: John Lennon/Paul McCartney

    (c) breakdown:
    25% John Lenon (writer)
    25% Paul McCartney (writer)
    25% EMI Blackwood (*publisher)
    25% Sony/ATV Tree (*publisher)

    *Don't confuse these parties with EMI Records or Sony Records - for the purposes of this discussion they are different parties. If it helps you to keep it straight, substitute Blackwood Publishing" for EMI Blackwood" and "ATV/Tree" for Sony/ATV Tree.

    Every time a copy of that song is sold in a mechanical form (CD, .mp3) $0.091 is split among those 4 parties equally or about $0.023 cents each.

    So when The Beatles recorded "Come Together" on the Abbey Road, every time that album sold/sells the 4 parties listed above get about $0.023. But George Harrison gets nothing, nor does Ringo Starr, nor does the record label (EMI Records).

    So how do those other parties, who clearly had a hand in making the Sound Recording getting paid?

    OK, so hang with me...

    Remember the other right associated with the song - (p)?

    EMI Records owns the (p). They agree to share the income earned from the (p) with The Beatles.via a record contract.

    I won't get into the breakdown, but when a record sells EMI Music is going to packet about $0.60 on the dollar, the distributor is going to pocket about $0.30 on the dollar and The Beatles are going to pocket about the remaining $0.10.

    To recap, when Abbey Road sells, the income earned only from the song "Come Together" is:

    John Lenon - $0.023 (c) + $0.025 (p) = $0.048
    Paul McCartney - $0.023 (c) +$0.025 (p) = $0.048
    Blackwood publishing - $0.023 (c) *only
    ATV/Tree publishing - $0.023 (c) *only*
    EMI Records - $0.025 (p) *only*
    George Harrison - $0.025 (p) *only*
    Ringo Starr - $0.025 (p) *only*

    Multiple these monies out for multiple songs/record.

    But what happens when another band, such as Big Mountain does a reggae cover of Come Together?

    Well, there is a new (p) involved because Big Mountain re-recorded the song - they didn't use the same tracks as The Beatles for their reggae version - they made new tracks and thus a new (p)... which Big Mountain's record label likely owns.

    What does that breakdown look like?

    John Lenon - $0.023 (c) *only*
    Paul McCartney - $0.023 (c) *only*
    Blackwood publishing - $0.023 (c) *only
    ATV/Tree publishing - $0.023 (c) *only*

    These parties still get paid, because it is still their (c) - it is just a recorded different interpretation of John Lennon & Paul McCartney's words & music. I.e., it's the same song with a different track. Continuing:

    Big Mountain's record label (whomever they may be) - $0.025 (p) *only*
    Big Mountain - - $0.10 (p) *only*

    Clearer?

    Honestly, I come across people every day in the music industry who should know better, but still don't understand the difference between (c) and (p). Look on the back of any CD or at the liner notes and you will see both symbols.

    It's why artists lose their shirts signing away publishing and or masters ownership. Because record companies *do* get this and use that knowledge to their advantage.

    ****** The More You Know ****** #riaa
     Reply
    B3ND3R was starred B3ND3R was unstarred
    Image of emorottie emorottie
    11/07/09

    @B3ND3R: Hrrrm yeah you're right about the use of the (p) and (c) symbol. I am mistaken on that.

    Technically, however, all rights including the sound recording and composition can be covered under SR.

    This is where copyright law gets a bit murky there (it took me a long while to fully understand the limitations and paperwork involved with obtaining a compulsory license). #riaa
     Reply
    Mike Zuniga: That was Unexpected promoted this comment emorottie was starred emorottie was unstarred
    Image of B3ND3R B3ND3R
    11/07/09

    @emorottie: If you are the owner of both the copyright & the phonoright, you can file your ownership for both rights simultaneously using Form SR or Form CO.

    Without getting into all the nuances, filing doesn't "give" you copyright it only provides you with prima fascia evidence in a dispute.

    Regardless, (c) & (p) are treated differently when it comes to licensing them.

    As you can deduce from my explanation above, if you owned both rights (you are both the author of the words & music *and* the author of the master recording) you could license (c) and chose not to license (p).

    For example, as the licensor you might choose to do this in authorizing a cover recording. A new (p) is created which you don't own but you do get paid when the licensee uses your (c).

    But the inverse wouldn't be true if the licensee were attempting to duplicate the actual Master recording in some manner . As the owner of both (c) & (p) you would have to grant the licensee (c) if you were licensing the (p).

    For example, if a TV show wanted to use the actual Beatles Master recording of "Come Together" as background music in a scene, the TV show (licensee) would have to obtain both a Master Use (p) license and a Synchronization (c) license from the licensor... as well as performance license from a PRO, but we won't get into that here.

    Don't feel too badly about not understanding all the limitations of music licensing. I have worked for major record labels, music publishers, and songwriters for over 15 years and currently do music industry education for a living and even I have a hard time keeping up.

    IMO, the root of the problem centers on the fact that we are operating on a copyright law that hasn't been significantly updated since 1976. And who knew about the internet in '76 (besides Al Gore)?

    Congress has been applying poor bandaids to the law since then (AHRA, DPRSRA, DMCA) when the whole law needs rewritten. Nobody has the stones to take it on, though, and the RIAA & MPAA are concerned with maintaining the status quo. #riaa
     Reply
    B3ND3R was starred B3ND3R was unstarred
    Image of czetie czetie
    11/08/09

    @B3ND3R: Hey, stop making sense! #riaa
     Reply
    Mike Zuniga: That was Unexpected promoted this comment czetie was starred czetie was unstarred
    Image of emorottie emorottie
    11/08/09

    @B3ND3R: Quick note cause I can't read this atm, but I'm bugging you just BECAUSE you know so much and I'd like to know more!

    Thanks for all the info in advance; it'll help me out a lot. The music part of copyright is terribly difficult to comprehend (other parts of copyright law are no issue for me but music = O___o) #riaa
     Reply
    emorottie was starred emorottie was unstarred
    Image of Bertone77 Bertone77
    11/07/09

    In reply to BlueBeat’s Innovative Defense That Will Never Hold Up in Court
    Nice try Hank, but you need to do some more research on copyright infringement before you go "creating music" again.

    What Hank created is clearly a "derivative work" as defined by US copyright law. [en.wikipedia.org]

    He did not create anythingnew, instead he stood on the shoulders of giants and "altered" it enough so that he could justify it in his mind that it was "original".

    Hope he has a good lawyer to at least try to soften the blow of the book that is going to be thrown at him. #riaa
     Reply
    Bertone77 was starred Bertone77 was unstarred
    Image of ethanlechcharles ethanlechcharles
    11/07/09

    In reply to BlueBeat’s Innovative Defense That Will Never Hold Up in Court
    So in other words, he ripped the cds, threw them out and then duplicated the files?
     Reply
    Mike Zuniga: That was Unexpected promoted this comment Edited by ethanlechcharles at 11/07/09 4:43 PM ethanlechcharles was starred ethanlechcharles was unstarred
    Image of njdevil njdevil
    11/07/09

    In reply to BlueBeat’s Innovative Defense That Will Never Hold Up in Court
    Aww. I was just going there to download "When I'm 64kbps" #riaa
     Reply
    Mike Zuniga: That was Unexpected promoted this comment njdevil was starred njdevil was unstarred
    Image of Nick Nick
    11/06/09

    In reply to Slacker Radio App Comes to Android Market
    i will download this app and listen to some songs. i will then report back here to share with everyone what i think. it is only my opinion that is important so any posts after this one are moot. except for the post i will post after this one which will be my review of slacker radio. brb. #android
     Reply
    Nick was starred Nick was unstarred
    Image of Nick Nick
    11/06/09

    @Nick: so far it looks great. behaves well. only complaint so far is that the app stops playing when my screen turns off and phone will go into sleep mode. you can set Slacker to keep the screen on, but i would like the screen off and Slacker to keep playing. oh, and my other complaint is that Dane Cook was playing on the comedy top station. DANE COOK SUCKS #android
     Reply
    Nick was starred Nick was unstarred
    Image of Tawnie is saving no daylight Tawnie is saving no daylight
    11/06/09

    In reply to Slacker Radio App Comes to Android Market
    I will probably buy this in June when I get a Droid. I refuse to pay 550.00 for a droid or 450.oo for the eris so I'll wait until my contract is up in June. #android
     Reply
    Tawnie is saving no daylight was starred Tawnie is saving no daylight was unstarred
    Image of Crazy_Talk Crazy_Talk
    11/06/09

    In reply to Slacker Radio App Comes to Android Market
    what is the difference between the "lite" and the premium versions? #android
     Reply
    OCEntertainment promoted this comment Crazy_Talk was starred Crazy_Talk was unstarred
    Image of OCEntertainment OCEntertainment
    11/06/09

    @Crazy_Talk: Don't know if it just hasn't shown up yet, but I only found a free version in the Market.

    [www.androlib.com] #android
     Reply
    OCEntertainment was starred OCEntertainment was unstarred
    Image of TVGenius TVGenius
    11/06/09

    @Crazy_Talk: It's just referring to the free, ad-supported accounts vs. the paid, more customizable, ad-free subscription accounts (which are well worth the $47.88/yr). Slacker is SO much better than the wasteland that XM/Sirius has become.

    [www.slacker.com]
     Reply
    OCEntertainment promoted this comment Edited by TVGenius at 11/06/09 2:15 AM TVGenius was starred TVGenius was unstarred
    Image of Matthew Gerstman Matthew Gerstman
    11/04/09

    In reply to The Beatles' Catalog, Now on Limited Edition USB Stick
    @Cheta777 @Lizard_King

    The Beatles entire catalog is on Apple Records. This has existed long before Apple Computer. In fact there was a big trademark dispute shortly after Apple Computer Started getting big. For more history: [en.wikipedia.org] #thebeatlesappleusbstick
     Reply
    Lizard_King promoted this comment Matthew Gerstman was starred Matthew Gerstman was unstarred
    Image of Lizard_King Lizard_King
    11/04/09

    @Matthew Gerstman: Taking the piss, man. It's funny how the thread has developed. #thebeatlesappleusbstick
     Reply
    Lizard_King was starred Lizard_King was unstarred
    Image of imTheKing imTheKing
    11/04/09

    In reply to The Beatles' Catalog, Now on Limited Edition USB Stick
    Danny, is this basically the "digital" stick version of what the Mono and Stereo boxset collections are? I just purchased both the Mono and Stereo sets off Amazon for a hefty $500 and I just saw the Miles Davis collection on Uncrate for $330 ( [www.uncrate.com] ). These labels need to chill for a little. I can't keep spending cash like this haha. #thebeatlesappleusbstick
     Reply
    Lizard_King promoted this comment imTheKing was starred imTheKing was unstarred
    Image of Lizard_King Lizard_King
    11/04/09

    @imTheKing: I hear ya, I overspent my CD budget by a long shot in the beginning of September.

    I think this is just stereo mixes - you still MUST get the mono CDs if you purchase this. #thebeatlesappleusbstick
     Reply
    Lizard_King was starred Lizard_King was unstarred
    Image of imTheKing imTheKing
    11/04/09

    @Lizard_King: Yeah it's odd. Over the past 2 years, I've had a few audio related purchases. Mostly vinyl collections and limited releases from Portishead and the like. But this is becoming insane to the point where I've spent over $1000 in less than 3 months. #thebeatlesappleusbstick
     Reply
    imTheKing was starred imTheKing was unstarred
    Image of OMG! Ponies! OMG! Ponies!
    11/04/09

    In reply to The Beatles' Catalog, Now on Limited Edition USB Stick
    There has always been a legit way to get digital Beatles songs:

    Rip the CD #thebeatlesappleusbstick
     Reply
    OMG! Ponies! was starred OMG! Ponies! was unstarred
    Image of abadomaX abadomaX
    11/04/09

    @OMG! Ponies!: that isnt legal everywhere #thebeatlesappleusbstick
     Reply
    OMG! Ponies! promoted this comment abadomaX was starred abadomaX was unstarred
    Image of greyseal greyseal
    11/04/09

    @OMG! Ponies!: Yes! Thank you for posting this. I don't understand the big deal -- isn't it better to buy nice lossless CDs, rip them at whatever bit rate you want, and then permanently tuck them away as backup?

    I bought the stereo boxed set. Took maybe an hour to rip. And in a few years when we all have 32 TB music players that can hold all the uncompressed music in the world, I'll still have pristine copies of the stuff at my disposal. #thebeatlesappleusbstick
     Reply
    OMG! Ponies! promoted this comment greyseal was starred greyseal was unstarred
    Image of OMG! Ponies! OMG! Ponies!
    11/04/09

    @abadomaX: From what I can tell, there is an exception for temporary, erasable copies. Because otherwise you couldn't sell (or even own) mp3 players of any kind in Europe as it necessarily requires the duplication of copyrighted material to function. #thebeatlesappleusbstick
     Reply
    OMG! Ponies! was starred OMG! Ponies! was unstarred
    Image of ArcAttack ArcAttack
    11/04/09

    In reply to Create Your Own Tesla Coil Musical With the ArcAttack Emulator
    ArcAttack stole my wallet... #arcattack
     Reply
    ArcAttack was starred ArcAttack was unstarred
    Image of psychonaut2021:That's Mr Psychonaut to you! psychonaut2021:That's Mr Psychonaut to you!
    11/03/09

    In reply to Create Your Own Tesla Coil Musical With the ArcAttack Emulator
    MONDO COOL!! #arcattack
     Reply
    psychonaut2021:That's Mr Psychonaut to you! was starred psychonaut2021:That's Mr Psychonaut to you! was unstarred
    Image of bonedog73 bonedog73
    11/03/09

    In reply to It's Still True: Music Pirates Buy More Music
    I don't believe surveys nor statistics....they're all BS made up to get people to do or think something they wouldnt normally. Nobody actually knows what everyone else does, all they can do is ass-u-me. If you asked 5000 people the same question you'd get 5000 different responses. #torrents
     Reply
    bonedog73 was starred bonedog73 was unstarred
    Image of fender7083 fender7083
    11/02/09

    In reply to It's Still True: Music Pirates Buy More Music
    I guess I don't fit in this survey. I haven't bought a song in four years. The same with movies, game, software. They probably just said this to make the music industry feel better. #torrents
     Reply
    SewerShark: LOOK BEHIND YOU, A THREE HEADED MONKEY!!! promoted this comment fender7083 was starred fender7083 was unstarred
    Image of SewerShark: LOOK BEHIND YOU, A THREE HEADED MONKEY!!! SewerShark: LOOK BEHIND YOU, A THREE HEADED MONKEY!!!
    11/03/09

    @fender7083: I haven't bought any music in what? 10 years? And yes, I also download movies and games...but I buy them when they worth the price.
    Demos and trailers are not enough to evaluate them. #torrents
     Reply
    SewerShark: LOOK BEHIND YOU, A THREE HEADED MONKEY!!! was starred SewerShark: LOOK BEHIND YOU, A THREE HEADED MONKEY!!! was unstarred
    Image of Alessar Alessar
    11/02/09

    In reply to Gavari's Attempt to Reinvent the Violin Will Be an Uphill Battle
    If I didn't know it was a real instrument, I'd think it was an ashtray. #music
     Reply
    Alessar was starred Alessar was unstarred
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