neuroscience - Gizmodo

posts about #neuroscience more →
How Your Brain Will Betray You in a Court of Law
Brain Scan Finds Man Was Not in a Coma—23 Years Later
Real Mouse Navigates Quake 2 Using a Trackball
Scientists Use Laser Beams and Engineered Algae Viruses to Control Your Mind
Silicon Chip Mimics Brain Cells

Your version of Internet Explorer is not supported. Please upgrade to the most recent version in order to view comments.

Dsmvwl Admin Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×

Jacubious
11/25/09

In reply to How Your Brain Will Betray You in a Court of Law
I was pretty disturbed by this article as I usually am when I read things about people getting death sentences. I must say though, the comments really showed it up. I can't believe how lightly some people are suggesting offing human beings. I do not want to get into a debate over this, but to simply express my incredulity with regards to some of the attitudes here.
Reply

Jacubious was starred Jacubious was unstarred

EpiphyteCorp.
11/25/09

@Jacubious: I know you're not looking for a debate but... you read the article right? The dude plead guilty (repeat... PLEAD GUILTY) to kidnapping, raping and killing a 10-y-o girl. He was already serving 2 life sentences for 2 other murders. I wouldn't necessarily consider this an act of nonchalantly "offing human beings".
Reply

EpiphyteCorp. was starred EpiphyteCorp. was unstarred

Jacubious
11/25/09

@EpiphyteCorp.: What particularly got me was people saying that those who are considered psychopaths, based on scans indicating malfunctioning brains, should be killed as they cannot be fixed anyways. The implications of statements to those ends are frightening in many ways.
Reply

Jacubious was starred Jacubious was unstarred

ForestFire0
11/24/09

In reply to How Your Brain Will Betray You in a Court of Law
So the jury came to the same conclusion, but it took 9 hours longer, and that is a victory? "Well, you'll still be killed, but they thought about it for a while! That makes you feel a little better, right?"
Reply

ForestFire0 was starred ForestFire0 was unstarred

ArmoredCavalry
11/24/09

@ForestFire0: The sad part, they weren't even thinking about not giving the death penalty, the pizza delivery just took longer than expected...
Reply

Shamoononon: I shave my legs. promoted this comment ArmoredCavalry was starred ArmoredCavalry was unstarred

Duckspwn
11/24/09

In reply to How Your Brain Will Betray You in a Court of Law
Wooo! Death penalty!
This article had a happy ending.
Reply

Duckspwn was starred Duckspwn was unstarred

Shamoononon: I shave my legs.
11/24/09

@Duckspwn:

*does a tap dance*
Reply

yogibimbi
11/24/09

In reply to How Your Brain Will Betray You in a Court of Law
interesting to know that forensics seem to understand the brain better than neurobiology does. fMRI so far is mostly empirical data, meaning, that in most of the people, certain functions can be mapped to certain regions, a bit like a Brodman map backed up by statistics.

However, why that is so and what the real processes are that go on internally; and especially the left and right extremities of the Gaussian curve of the population, that do not fit the empirical data, i.e. stuff is not where it should be, I think it a little bit courageous to reach a life-and-death decision based on those data. The brain is amazingly plastic (as in versatile, malleable by experience, not as in PVC), maps of it are still more like roadmaps in the slums of Mumbay or the favelas of Rio, not like street maps of inner city London (which in itself also shows enough changes, but not so extreme).
Reply

Shamoononon: I shave my legs. promoted this comment yogibimbi was starred yogibimbi was unstarred

diesel828
11/25/09

@yogibimbi: True, the brain is malleable but not in the same context you might be implying. Functional MRIs have been pretty decent indicators of what kind of activity takes place in the brain as it correlates to a physical action, including thought. You're right, these maps of the brain aren't completely accurate, but they're a good indicator. I think it's great that the evidence admitted in a courtroom because it paves the way for real, empirical evidence to be considered in the future.

To me, a the difference between the death penalty and life without the chance of parole are inconsequential - that's just my opinion. The fact that science is being taken seriously enough to be admitted into a court of law is key.

Like you said, fMRI, in most people, is pretty accurate. Even if there was a high margin of error around 10 or even 20 percent, wouldn't you agree that that is far more reliable than something like witness testimony? The latter being the number one source of evidence in a courtroom and also the least reliable.
Reply

diesel828 was starred diesel828 was unstarred

yogibimbi
11/25/09

@diesel828: I agree with you on the witness part as unreliable (and, may I add, biased), and on the maps being amazingly good, however it would cause me me a certain amount of headaches to know that somebody has been sentenced to death because of a fMRI. That's a pretty terminal decision.

Maybe the uncertainty I feel comes from being a neurobiologist;-) I know how little I know, part of it being due to my own stupidity and laziness, the other being due to the current stupidity (aka limitations) of science.
Reply

yogibimbi was starred yogibimbi was unstarred

Canoehead
11/24/09

In reply to How Your Brain Will Betray You in a Court of Law
Strikes me as a darned good reason to kill him, since apparently his brain architecture will prevent rehabilitation. One would think that defense counsel would be a bit leery of this avenue, as it seems fraught with danger for defendants.
Reply

Canoehead was starred Canoehead was unstarred

Covertghost
11/24/09

@Canoehead: Wait... using the penal institutions to rehabilitate?

Madness.
Reply

Nathan Obbards promoted this comment Covertghost was starred Covertghost was unstarred

Nelson
11/24/09

In reply to How Your Brain Will Betray You in a Court of Law
Still waiting for advances in dream-recording technology, and then using a combination of someone's dream and intent to convict people. When that happens, its time to peace out.
Reply

Edited by Nelson at 11/24/09 7:51 PM Nelson was starred Nelson was unstarred

Nelson
11/24/09

@Nelson:
Reply

Nathan Obbards promoted this comment Nelson was starred Nelson was unstarred

tomsomething
11/24/09

In reply to How Your Brain Will Betray You in a Court of Law
I don't see this as a gateway to guilt-sniffing robots. This is a medical image used to prove that someone's brain is broken and could not function correctly.

There may be guilt-sniffing robots in the future, but this is unrelated.
Reply

Nathan Obbards promoted this comment tomsomething was starred tomsomething was unstarred

Shamoononon: I shave my legs.
11/24/09

In reply to How Your Brain Will Betray You in a Court of Law
Pop a xanax.
Reply

EpiphyteCorp.
11/25/09

@Shamoononon: I shave my legs.: COMMON side effects persist or become bothersome when using Xanax:

Changes in appetite; changes in sexual desire; constipation; dizziness; drowsiness; dry mouth; increased saliva production; lightheadedness; tiredness; trouble concentrating; unsteadiness; weight changes.

No rape/ murder here.

I approve ;)
Reply

EpiphyteCorp. was starred EpiphyteCorp. was unstarred

travisco_nabisco
11/24/09

In reply to How Your Brain Will Betray You in a Court of Law
This is truly a disturbing concept. I have not doubt that science will one day get to the point where this is reliable, but it should take a lot more than a look at the brains basic structure to determine this.
Reply

Nathan Obbards promoted this comment travisco_nabisco was starred travisco_nabisco was unstarred

Nathan Obbards
11/24/09

In reply to How Your Brain Will Betray You in a Court of Law
I don't think anyone should be subject to the death penalty ever, but I also think that people who suffer from psychosis or who are pscyho/sociopaths should not be lumped in with the general prison populace. Let's rehabilitate the healthy and treat the mentally unsound.

Now excuse me as I hop off of my liberal sociologist soapbox.
Reply

Nathan Obbards was starred Nathan Obbards was unstarred

SJRNWT
11/24/09

@Nathan Obbards: I believe the death sentence can be justified. I don't believe it's right for our tax dollars to be spent on keeping some sick son of a bitch pedophilic rapist in jail getting free food and a place to stay for the rest of his life. They're not doing anything for society, they're simply wasting money.

But I live in Canada, where we don't do the death penalty. I don't hate my government for it, but I sure wish it would change one day. Or at least exile people haha
Reply

Nathan Obbards promoted this comment SJRNWT was starred SJRNWT was unstarred

tomsomething
11/24/09

@Nathan Obbards: John Allen Muhammad, infamous "Beltway Sniper" and would-be terrorist network mastermind, was put to death recently.

He demonstrated an ability to identify impressionable youths and develop them into serial killers. An innocent pen-pal relationship or a friendship with a soon-to-be-released convict is an opening to further extend his reach, even from behind bars.

I feel that his death was absolutely right, not as punishment for a series of horrifying and unforgivable acts, but as a necessary means to snuff out the influence of a dangerous man.
Reply

Nathan Obbards promoted this comment tomsomething was starred tomsomething was unstarred

Nathan Obbards
11/24/09

@SJRNWT: I just believe in a reform system, not a retributive system. Most prisons in the US just teach criminals how to become worse criminals, they don't give them the skill sets to go on to lead decent lives and to get a real job. As for the tax dollars bit, there is no consensus on whether the execution is actually cheaper. Some have analyzed it and found the death penalty to be more expensive than life imprisonment while others have found it to be cheaper. I just take a moral stand that killing someone is very rarely right. There is no added utility in killing someone who is sentenced to life in prison and sometimes they even produce something worthwhile. Not only that, but if new evidence comes to life that absolves them, we won't have killed an innocent person, something that has happened too often in Texas.

As for exiling people, I mean, isn't that how the great nation of Australia started? It literally is a nation of pirates, murderers, rapists, and thieves.
Reply

Nathan Obbards was starred Nathan Obbards was unstarred

Nathan Obbards
11/24/09

@tomsomething: You could just screen/block all of his letters. Also, people who are in prison for life without parole are generally kept separate from the rest of the prison population.
Reply

Nathan Obbards was starred Nathan Obbards was unstarred

G.O.D.
11/24/09

@Nathan Obbards: I have an Idea how about dispose of, kill, or use for medical testing, all the criminals and psycho/sociopaths. Then spend the money we would have wasted trying to rehabilitate or treat them on people that are already productive members of society by rewarding them for doing a great job with education and training to better themselves, their lives and everything around them. If you reward bad behavior you will get behavior.
Reply

Nathan Obbards promoted this comment G.O.D. was starred G.O.D. was unstarred

Nathan Obbards
11/24/09

@G.O.D.: I wanted to go Godwin on you, but refrained. Instead I shall leave you with this: [en.wikipedia.org] as well as the fact that rehabilitative/restorative justice tends to create better results than retributive justice.
Reply

Nathan Obbards was starred Nathan Obbards was unstarred

Shamoononon: I shave my legs.
11/24/09

@Nathan Obbards: When you rape and murder a ten year old little girl, taking your life is not cruel or unusual. You want cruel? Hand him over to me.

With that, I've been in trouble for politically debating on here, so I will take the rest of my opinions and run.

That flash of light? That was me, I be runnin.
Reply

Nathan Obbards
11/24/09

@Shamoononon: I shave my legs.: Haha, yeah, I had to say it, but knew I was opening a can when I said it. It boils down to personal ethics. My ethical stance is that it's immoral, but others have good arguments for the justice of it.
Reply

Nathan Obbards was starred Nathan Obbards was unstarred

chapoec
11/25/09

@Nathan Obbards: Come on you don't believe that bastard sniper deserved to be put to death. Stop being such a bleeding hearth liberal. If it was your mother, father, sibling, or friend that was killed by this bitch you would think differently. The death penalty should be used for the most heinous murderers like the DC Sniper.
Reply

Nathan Obbards promoted this comment chapoec was starred chapoec was unstarred

Nathan Obbards
11/25/09

@chapoec: If it was my mother, sister, father, or friend, I would feel the same way that he should be shown grace and not killed. Be it from a philosophical utilitarian perspective or a religious perspective, I could not justify killing someone for the evil they have committed.

Additionally, I am not stupid. Grad schools, especially mine, don't allow dumbasses in. Nice ad hominem attack. In context, my statement makes perfect sense. Some forms of execution do fall under cruel and unusual, hence why there was a hiatus on all execution via lethal injection and why the gas chamber is no longer used. Beyond that, I was pointing out how medical testing would most definitely fall under cruel and unusual.

I don't believe anyone is entitled to the death penalty, but that is my moral paradigm built upon the moral philosophies I adhere to. You are entitled to my beliefs and I mine. Do I believe yours are wrong? Yes, but I'm not going to be an ass about it.
Reply

Nathan Obbards was starred Nathan Obbards was unstarred

MrBangBam
11/25/09

@Nathan Obbards: I believe in the death penalty. :)
Reply

MrBangBam was starred MrBangBam was unstarred

chapoec
11/25/09

@Nathan Obbards: Yes you are right in a debate it is a weak fallacy to attack the opponent instead of the issue. But hey this is gizmodo not academia.

#tips
Reply

chapoec was starred chapoec was unstarred

Nathan Obbards
11/25/09

@chapoec: One should always argue intelligently lest the unintelligent/fallacious forms of arguing seep into those arenas where intelligent argument is necessary.
Reply

Nathan Obbards was starred Nathan Obbards was unstarred

Kaiser-Machead
11/24/09

In reply to How Your Brain Will Betray You in a Court of Law
And what's to distinguish guilt of a murder from guilt from infidelity.
Reply

Kaiser-Machead was starred Kaiser-Machead was unstarred

NorwoodIsMyHero
11/24/09

In reply to Brain Scan Finds Man Was Not in a Coma—23 Years Later
Do you see what socialized healthcare gets you?

Troll bait anyone?
Reply

robinandtami promoted this comment NorwoodIsMyHero was starred NorwoodIsMyHero was unstarred

robinandtami
11/24/09

@NorwoodIsMyHero: Forget socialized healthcare... I'm really pissed about socialized emergency services. Why should my tax dollars be used to extinguish someone elses kitchen fire?
Reply

robinandtami was starred robinandtami was unstarred

twiner
11/24/09

@robinandtami: Because that one persons kitchen fire could spread to their neighbors, and then their neighbors, etc. etc.

The great Chicago fire of 1871 is evidence of a similar situation. A fire is suspected to have started in a shed, and then spread across nearly 4 square miles before it was contained.

That's why you pay tax dollars to prevent it.
Reply

robinandtami promoted this comment twiner was starred twiner was unstarred

robinandtami
11/24/09

@twiner: Well it's a darn good thing that diseases don't spread beyond their initial carriers.... wait.....

#tips
Reply

robinandtami was starred robinandtami was unstarred

Jrsy Devil's Advocate®
11/24/09

In reply to Brain Scan Finds Man Was Not in a Coma—23 Years Later
He wasn't in a coma. He was just extremely sleepy..
Reply

dr.
11/24/09

In reply to Brain Scan Finds Man Was Not in a Coma—23 Years Later
@POOP cooper

you make a blanket statement. Doctors do know how to use technology, there are myriad reasons for people to get testing or not. For example CT scans are incredible in the imaging that they provide but they also give you radiation. Say someone gets in an accident in their lates teens -- CT then they have a kidney stone/kidney infection --CT then they have another problem in life/accident. This person has been overdosed with radiation. Every scan causes some bit of permanent damage, and every scan is expensive as well. Resources are limited, and routinely checking every single comatose pt with certain "technologies" is not feasible or a good use of limited resources. I do think that before one diagnoses a patient as permanent vegetative state, they should at least perform a simple and inexpensive EKG to rule out cognizance.
Reply

Poop Cooper approved this comment dr. was starred dr. was unstarred

Poop Cooper
11/24/09

@dr.: Apologies, you're absolutely right and in hindsight I totally overreacted to some fuzzy and possibly invalid statistics. This is a great explanation and addresses all of my concerns. I genuinely thank you for appeasing the ramblings of an internet personality.
Reply

Poop Cooper was starred Poop Cooper was unstarred

MacWilson
11/24/09

In reply to Brain Scan Finds Man Was Not in a Coma—23 Years Later
Ok I just read a little about this FC thing.

It would not be difficult to ascertain if this was valid or not so I don't know what is going on and i'm not going to judge this if everyone is so lame they can't even make a simple call on this simple question.

Of course you should never underestimate the deviousness of the religious right.

But until the (sane) jury is out we should give the benefit of the doubt considering what is at stake.

And if this is faked, that's exactly where the morons should be (the stake)
Reply

Fractal the Meek promoted this comment MacWilson was starred MacWilson was unstarred

Segador
11/24/09

@MacWilson: "Of course you should never underestimate the deviousness of the religious right."

And let me guess, whatever political doctrine you espouse is altruistic and incapable of wrongdoing.

Regardless of your political views, blanket statements like this serve no purpose but to inflame pointless argument.
Reply

Segador was starred Segador was unstarred

Earlier discussions Other discussions Show all discussions Show featured discussions only Start a new discussion