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Chris Jacob
"Betamax and MiniDisc. They, like the ereader, are futile exercises in trying to create a market for something that has little demand."
Begging your pardon, but Betamax and VHS were contemporaries. Is Giz telling us that there was no demand for home taping? MiniDisc pioneered the idea of "ripping" CD music to a skip-resistent, more portable format, which is similarly significant today and was a big selling point at the time. Their failures have nothing to do with market demand for their functions.
I'll note, for pedantry's sake, that you say few people "Still use" either of those. That's rather an absurd observation for any format, successful or failed, which was launched in the 1980s. Nobody still uses tapes, either.
While the rest of your argument is interesting, this bit is way off.
I predict: Book + digital copy. It's the same reason I refuse to buy movies and music on iTunes. Without a physical copy I own, you never know when rights can be revoked. Plus, publishers set the prices and it's never as cheap as a used copy.
I still remember when the Segway came out and Dean Kamen was everywhere talking about how they'd revolutionize transportation, replace the car, and make major urban areas free from automobiles. Now they're mostly consigned to guided tours and a great series of jokes on Arrested Development.
If Gob Bluth read a book, it'd definitely be on a Kindle.
I read an article exactly like this about 78's vs LP's.
Later I read an identical article about LP's and CD's.
Then I saw all the pundits claiming that digital cameras were for kids.
Now, we have a gadget site, a gadget site, doubting that we will ever stop using wood stoves.
As I have said before here, dedicated ebooks are a transistional form. As screen tech improves we will be able to, among many many other things, read books on our tablets.
The idea that we will continue to cut down hundreds of acres of trees, grind them into paper, then print that paper, then ship that paper, then pick up and recycle (some) of that paper -- just so we can read the Sunday Edition of the NYT, is nuts, and is not sustainable; even if all the luddites in all the world want to hold the corpse of a tree in their loving hands.
I don't know. I own a Kindle, and have to say that it really is better than a book in many capacities.
First, portability. I can easily carry and read it anywhere I go, including public transportation. Some people will give me that odd look, but then I'm in peace with my geekdom for a long time now.
A small paperback is even more portable than a Kindle, but the Kindle has the advantage of acting as multiple books. I love having more than one reading option through the day: read the news while going to work, then keep my skills up to date reading a technical book on my lunch break, and finally relax while reading a novel on my way home. It would be quite a burden to carry that in paper form.
It's also - surprisingly - easier to read in bed. Lighter than most novels, and you don't get that weird thumb pain for holding a thick book open for hours.
The Kindle or other readers aren't anything revolutionary, a huge step forward. But they're a nice incremental change, nice enough to justify the money I paid for it.
I don't finish books rather quickly, so ebooks are not economical for me, because I could just as well go to Strand or Amazon and get what I want, read through it, and either toss it on the shelf for future reading, or give to someone else if it's not something I'd care to read again.
Real books will rule for a long long time, regardless of technological terror they've constructed.
Many books are cheaper for it than if I were to buy them in print. (many far below $10).
E-readers are great for travel.
They are smaller than almost all hardbacks, and a fair bit of softcovers.
The screen is far more comfortable to read for long periods of time than my computer screen.
The "lag" between page turns is minimal, unless you're trying to flip through many pages at once. For research, it's bad. For reading for fun, it's perfectly functional.
The fact that I don't have to charge it but every few weeks is great.
I don't want my phone, my mp3 player and my e-book to all share the same battery.
I don't want to read books on a tiny cell phone screen.
As I've said before, for those who move around a lot, e-books are great. I currently live in a place where books are a fair bit more expensive than in the States, and even if I buy books here it'd be a pain to move them back. (I bought about 15 books before I bought a Kindle, and they're all getting left behind when I move back home. It's cheaper to buy them again than to ship them.)
Most people who have problems with e-readers share one thing: They want it to be something it's not. It's an e-reader. It's not a tablet. It's not a phone. It's not a book. It's an e-reader.
(And as a side note, I've used my Kindle in the bathtub many times.)
@Maori_Yelir: Many e-books are NOT $10. I've gotten many books for free off Amazon, and many more for less than $6. If you are a heavy consumer of books, you can even out the price difference in two years or less.
I admit, I am tempted by the Nook -- but that has more to do with the potential for writing Android Nook apps than because I actually want an e-reader.
Give me a paperback any day or a good e-reader app for my Android phone, and I'm happy. Dedicated e-reader devices seem redundant in a world of inexpensive books and advanced smartphones.
It's not a "manbag". It's not a "man-purse". It's not a "murse". It's not a "satchel". It's certainly not a "European Shoulder Bag".
If it has a strap and you sling it over your shoulder, it's a purse - regardless of the gender of the wearer. This goes double once you put your keys into it.
Personally, I'm secure enough in my own masculinity and heterosexuality to admit that, yes, I use a purse. Technically, it's a messenger bag, but it has keys, a book, lip balm, Purell, Altoids, my glasses case, and a handkerchief in it.
@OMG! Ponies!: "If it has a strap and you sling it over your shoulder, it's a purse - regardless of the gender of the wearer."
So I guess our entire military carries purses into combat. Skydivers are jumping out of planes with purses. Divers are underwater with waterproof purses. Hikers have giant purses. Santa has a big red purse.
YOU have a purse. Don't lump us all in with your purse toting ways.
@wAkO: Are you a bike messenger? If not, it's a bag you sling over your shoulder. If you're lugging your daily stash of stuff in it, it's a purse. Regardless of whether it has a spaghetti strap or a repurposed seatbelt strap.
And you have permission to tell your girlfriend to stay out of it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
@GraphicoFantastico: Those are actual pieces of equipment. Your slingbag of crap is not.
I'm guessing your purse has a phone, an iPod, a tangled set of headphones, a box of mints, a pack of gum, some Kleenex, a paperback, and your wallet. At the very least, I'm fairly certain I'm batting .500.
Here's a project: dump out your "messenger bag" and have your girlfriend dump out her purse. If you have more than three things in common, you're carrying a purse.
@OMG! Ponies!: But when I open my "purse" I can quickly get what I'm looking for, rather than dig around and complain to the nearest stranger that I can never find anything in it.
@sulayman: Or you can not get hung up on it and accept that you and yours both carry a purse.
A purse is a medium to large bag, often designed with an eye towards aesthetics, used to hold personal items such as wallet/coin purse, keys, tissues, cosmetics, a hairbrush, cellphone or other personal electronics, hygiene products, etc.
A medium-to-small-sized handbag with a short handle, designed to be carried (clutched) in one's hand is often called a clutch.
A larger handbag with two handles is often called a tote.
@OMG! Ponies!: My backpack has the following in it:
Apple Magic Mouse (emergency travel use only)
17" MacBook Pro
8 portable HDDS
2 pens
A dozen business cards
2 USB cables
1 FireWire cable
Spare Mag Adapter
Multi-tool
U.S. Passport
@OMG! Ponies!: "Those are actual pieces of equipment."
What do you think is inside a military ruck sack? Training manuals? No. It's all the crap you've described. Gum, snacks, probably a phone & an iPod, some underwear, some books, etc.
I'd say the price is *somewhat* fair for what you're getting. Digital delivery means, once the text is edited and converted to e-book format, there's pretty much nothing further to do than make money.
No publication or production costs, no shipping, no wholesale market. Straight from the publisher to the reader.
To add to that, the reader is also getting a lot less. You can't collect or sell a rare e-book, you can't lend an e-book to a friend, you can't rent an ebook for free from a library, you can't finish reading it and then sell it at a garage sale.
The great thing about physical media is that I have more freedom of doing what I want when I'm done with it or I'm sick of it. I can hand down or sell CDs, Movies, books. Or from the other perspective, I can buy used or receive a hand-me-down. Can't do that (legally) with iTunes.
To me, MP3/e-book downloads have always been like the pay-per-view business model, except you're paying full price.
@Ninety-9: Some misses. Yes you can lend an eBook (though limited to once currently - Nook). And yes, you can get eBooks from the library: [ebooks.nypl.org]
Totally agree that the re-sale or transfer potential is the nail in the coffin for their model. It turns an "own it" business model into strictly a "rent it" model, and that's unacceptable to me.
Unless this gets fixed, the library model is our only hope...
@Ninety-9: You can rent ebooks for free from libraries. I do it all the time on my Sony. Sure, the selection isn't that great, but I can always find something worthwhile to read.
@ross9999: Hmmm, I wasn't aware the libraries have caught up with technology. If that's the case, how do you define "Renting?" I don't expect they need me to "return" it, since they probably retain the original file. In addition, they'd never run out of a particular book because someone else has it checked out.
If that's the case, then, why buy it? Why be married to a copy of a book you're only going to read once, maybe twice? I understand, I can eat my words, because I could say the same thing about libraries vs. physical books. But physical books still have much, much more value, as far as saving, collecting, sharing, putting on a shelf to make people think you're intellectual.
And to all, I do take back the full price comment, I do know it's a reduced price, but you're still "paying" for ownership when you download it from amazon. I'd rather pay $2.99 to read it once and have it expire after 2 months, then pay $10 and be married to a piece of information for the rest of my life. When I say it's like Pay per view except you're paying full price, this is what I mean. They did reduce the cost, since you're eliminating ink and paper, but you're still 'paying to own' something you can never really 'own.'
While we're talking about iTunes and other online music stores, it seems to me that even with variable pricing, the cost of downloading music IS the same as purchasing the CD.
Here's what chaps my ass about e-books: I have to re-buy, at full price, digital versions of books I already own in print form. Music services like iTunes, on the other hand, allow you to upload music you already own into your library, including album artwork, etc.
I understand; music is already digitized, so no one had to do any extra work to crank out a digital copy. Books are paper, and they take work to digitize. There should, however, be some sort of acknowledgement that I own the print copy already, like a reduced-price digital version.
@spookyu: I'll readily admit that it takes work to make a digital version of a book, and that work has value. I'll pay it, just at a reduced rate. Publishers don't need to recoup the same costs from me twice.
@Segador: A small handful of books come with the digital copy on CD... the Honor Harington sci-fi series used to come with not only the ebook for the book you bought, but every book in the series and the spin-offs... which was pure awesome, great way to jump into a series in the middle.
If more publishers did this, or provided a code you could use to download the kindle or ereader version, I would actually buy a lot more physical books, because I like to read ebooks on the go, but I also like having the hard copy for posterity.
@Segador: The problem is that you've got it backwards. iTunes just allows your library to contain digital copies of music you provide them in addition to the music you buy from their store. But iTunes will not let you scan the UPC code of a cassette you bought in 1983 and download a digital version - you'd have to re-purchase them. It would be nice, but I don't think it's a very realistic request.
Any eBook reader can display any number of text formats though, if you can provide them.
On that note, eBook readers do put public domain works on the same standing as published novels. It's very nice to get copies of all the classics for free, instead of having to pay a publisher for printing a hard copy.
@Segador: I've always felt that undapants, as Jesus likes to say it, that are too tight chap my bum more so than not getting a digital copy of a book when I purchase the hard copy.
@smith186: Well stated. I'd still like the option to receive a digital copy of new books that I purchase today. I don't expect free digital copies of books I check out of the library, or books from 20 years ago.
@thechansen: not without a lot of complicated setup and then it would still be a race and potentially more involved afterwards. I bought a $35 package that I scanned a half page size book with on a flat bed scanner. Despite it being 300 pages, there was no need to cut it apart. It even can adjust for the curvature of the binding (try that with your cameras). I scanned them 2 up, it auto-numbered, auto-scaled, auto-cropped, auto-footered with left/right alternating footers and it turned the pages into image files which I could then tweak or even rotate quickly paging through all them and then after setting a couple further options with one button turned it into a PDF (or ePub...). They go in at the speed of your flat page scanner.
With two cameras, even if you get them and keep them well aligned, you need something like clear glass to cover and flatten them and good lighting that will not be off color in rendering (i.e. not incandescent or flourescent...), and then you end up with file numbering that's in two groups and no means to smoothly put it all together.
To compare book-buying habits to those of movies or music is folly. The publishing industry has never fostered the "you need to go get it immediately" mentality among the American public. In fact, only three things come to mind that are pushed in that fashion:
1- Twilight
2- Harry Potter
3- whatever nonsense Oprah's pushing down the gullets of middle-aged housewives
That's it.
I'd also add that you can argue they are treating e-books like paperbacks.
@thechansen: Except he's made large amounts of dough from his books. I do agree that his writing follows a formula, but Uwe Boll has lost lots of dough on his movies if I recall my bored Wikipedia surfing correctly.
I for one think we should just call Danny boy's formula the "Da Vinci Code".
/SPLAT
That was the sound of my pathetic pun falling flat on its face.
@thechansen: I totally agree on Michael Bay. I'm not a Transformers canonical purist and I found Transformers 2 to be pretty to watch and could write off the cheesy dialogue and story to the movie being targeted at a teenage audience.
Shoot me for being a shallow sellout all you want but I knew what I was getting into. And yes by pretty I meant Miss Fox, not just the FX.
Fact is the publishing industry is bloated and lazy just like the music industry. This will be similar to the litmus test that rocked the music industry. Bands that people respect and enjoy will prosper, up coming indie bands will gain huge amounts of exposure through file sharing and build a solid online following... Lady Gaga will have most of her shit torrented and disappear slowly. Similarly, that author that everyone loves and respects will continue to sell books, Sarah Palin will have her shitty and terrible book torrented and mocked. Bring it on folks, its the open marketplace...if its worth it, it'll be purchased.
@TonyWonder: One main difference is that portable music and movies or TV have always relied on a powered technology. Record players, tape players, CD players, TVs and movie theaters. Not so for books; print on paper and it's always there when you want it, no need for any technology. I think that's a major difference. Music and video lend themselves to digitized formats. Books, less so.
I won't buy a book at the Reader Store (the Sony eBook Store), unless it is under $14.00, which seems like an arbitrary number but there is some wacky prices on there. I recently paid $11.20 for Wake Up, Sir by Jonathan Ames. Prices seem to dropping on the Sony store to compete with Amazon/B&N. I have no issue buying a book for prices over $20 for a hardcover, and I would pay the same for a paperback as I would for an eBook.
I feel authors tend to get shafted by publishers even harder than musicians by record labels. On the average book that is simply released by a publisher with no marketing push, signing tour, etc. you are lucky to get a 100k copy printing, and even luckier if you manage to sell all of those. The ability to self publish on Amazon, iTunes, and other stores will be a great boost to the financial return that authors see. You don't get advances, and zero marketing (how many books actually get marketing??) but at least you are getting a better cut.
11:11 AM
Begging your pardon, but Betamax and VHS were contemporaries. Is Giz telling us that there was no demand for home taping? MiniDisc pioneered the idea of "ripping" CD music to a skip-resistent, more portable format, which is similarly significant today and was a big selling point at the time. Their failures have nothing to do with market demand for their functions.
I'll note, for pedantry's sake, that you say few people "Still use" either of those. That's rather an absurd observation for any format, successful or failed, which was launched in the 1980s. Nobody still uses tapes, either.
While the rest of your argument is interesting, this bit is way off.
11:11 AM
11:07 AM
If Gob Bluth read a book, it'd definitely be on a Kindle.
10:56 AM
Later I read an identical article about LP's and CD's.
Then I saw all the pundits claiming that digital cameras were for kids.
Now, we have a gadget site, a gadget site, doubting that we will ever stop using wood stoves.
As I have said before here, dedicated ebooks are a transistional form. As screen tech improves we will be able to, among many many other things, read books on our tablets.
The idea that we will continue to cut down hundreds of acres of trees, grind them into paper, then print that paper, then ship that paper, then pick up and recycle (some) of that paper -- just so we can read the Sunday Edition of the NYT, is nuts, and is not sustainable; even if all the luddites in all the world want to hold the corpse of a tree in their loving hands.
10:52 AM
First, portability. I can easily carry and read it anywhere I go, including public transportation. Some people will give me that odd look, but then I'm in peace with my geekdom for a long time now.
A small paperback is even more portable than a Kindle, but the Kindle has the advantage of acting as multiple books. I love having more than one reading option through the day: read the news while going to work, then keep my skills up to date reading a technical book on my lunch break, and finally relax while reading a novel on my way home. It would be quite a burden to carry that in paper form.
It's also - surprisingly - easier to read in bed. Lighter than most novels, and you don't get that weird thumb pain for holding a thick book open for hours.
The Kindle or other readers aren't anything revolutionary, a huge step forward. But they're a nice incremental change, nice enough to justify the money I paid for it.
10:51 AM
Real books will rule for a long long time, regardless of technological terror they've constructed.
10:48 AM
Many books are cheaper for it than if I were to buy them in print. (many far below $10).
E-readers are great for travel.
They are smaller than almost all hardbacks, and a fair bit of softcovers.
The screen is far more comfortable to read for long periods of time than my computer screen.
The "lag" between page turns is minimal, unless you're trying to flip through many pages at once. For research, it's bad. For reading for fun, it's perfectly functional.
The fact that I don't have to charge it but every few weeks is great.
I don't want my phone, my mp3 player and my e-book to all share the same battery.
I don't want to read books on a tiny cell phone screen.
As I've said before, for those who move around a lot, e-books are great. I currently live in a place where books are a fair bit more expensive than in the States, and even if I buy books here it'd be a pain to move them back. (I bought about 15 books before I bought a Kindle, and they're all getting left behind when I move back home. It's cheaper to buy them again than to ship them.)
Most people who have problems with e-readers share one thing: They want it to be something it's not. It's an e-reader. It's not a tablet. It's not a phone. It's not a book. It's an e-reader.
(And as a side note, I've used my Kindle in the bathtub many times.)
10:54 AM
11:03 AM
10:41 AM
I admit, I am tempted by the Nook -- but that has more to do with the potential for writing Android Nook apps than because I actually want an e-reader.
Give me a paperback any day or a good e-reader app for my Android phone, and I'm happy. Dedicated e-reader devices seem redundant in a world of inexpensive books and advanced smartphones.
10:41 AM
10:28 AM
It's not a "manbag". It's not a "man-purse". It's not a "murse". It's not a "satchel". It's certainly not a "European Shoulder Bag".
If it has a strap and you sling it over your shoulder, it's a purse - regardless of the gender of the wearer. This goes double once you put your keys into it.
Personally, I'm secure enough in my own masculinity and heterosexuality to admit that, yes, I use a purse. Technically, it's a messenger bag, but it has keys, a book, lip balm, Purell, Altoids, my glasses case, and a handkerchief in it.
I'm a dude with a purse.
10:37 AM
dont put us all in with you simply because you actually do have a purse. i only keep in my smaller sized messenger bag my books and spirals
10:39 AM
Sir, you have inspired me. I think I will go buy a purse now.
10:40 AM
10:42 AM
Just accept it. You carry a purse.
10:44 AM
So I guess our entire military carries purses into combat. Skydivers are jumping out of planes with purses. Divers are underwater with waterproof purses. Hikers have giant purses. Santa has a big red purse.
YOU have a purse. Don't lump us all in with your purse toting ways.
10:45 AM
And you have permission to tell your girlfriend to stay out of it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
10:48 AM
I'm guessing your purse has a phone, an iPod, a tangled set of headphones, a box of mints, a pack of gum, some Kleenex, a paperback, and your wallet. At the very least, I'm fairly certain I'm batting .500.
Here's a project: dump out your "messenger bag" and have your girlfriend dump out her purse. If you have more than three things in common, you're carrying a purse.
Accept it and find something else to define you.
10:48 AM
I don't see anything wrong with "shoulder bag." It's a nice, simple name that immediately describes the item. Just like "backpack" or "duffel bag."
10:49 AM
10:53 AM
A purse is a medium to large bag, often designed with an eye towards aesthetics, used to hold personal items such as wallet/coin purse, keys, tissues, cosmetics, a hairbrush, cellphone or other personal electronics, hygiene products, etc.
A medium-to-small-sized handbag with a short handle, designed to be carried (clutched) in one's hand is often called a clutch.
A larger handbag with two handles is often called a tote.
A pocketbook is a ladies' wallet.
10:53 AM
10:55 AM
10:55 AM
10:57 AM
Apple Magic Mouse (emergency travel use only)
17" MacBook Pro
8 portable HDDS
2 pens
A dozen business cards
2 USB cables
1 FireWire cable
Spare Mag Adapter
Multi-tool
U.S. Passport
that's it.
Hardly a purse.
11:00 AM
What do you think is inside a military ruck sack? Training manuals? No. It's all the crap you've described. Gum, snacks, probably a phone & an iPod, some underwear, some books, etc.
11:00 AM
Y'all are freakin' insecure.
You don't need to worry. Unless you drive a Mazda Miata or a Volkswagen New Beetle. Which are both chick cars.
11:05 AM
11:08 AM
12/09/09
No publication or production costs, no shipping, no wholesale market. Straight from the publisher to the reader.
To add to that, the reader is also getting a lot less. You can't collect or sell a rare e-book, you can't lend an e-book to a friend, you can't rent an ebook for free from a library, you can't finish reading it and then sell it at a garage sale.
The great thing about physical media is that I have more freedom of doing what I want when I'm done with it or I'm sick of it. I can hand down or sell CDs, Movies, books. Or from the other perspective, I can buy used or receive a hand-me-down. Can't do that (legally) with iTunes.
To me, MP3/e-book downloads have always been like the pay-per-view business model, except you're paying full price.
12/09/09
12/09/09
Totally agree that the re-sale or transfer potential is the nail in the coffin for their model. It turns an "own it" business model into strictly a "rent it" model, and that's unacceptable to me.
Unless this gets fixed, the library model is our only hope...
12/09/09
05:21 AM
#ebooks
10:04 AM
If that's the case, then, why buy it? Why be married to a copy of a book you're only going to read once, maybe twice? I understand, I can eat my words, because I could say the same thing about libraries vs. physical books. But physical books still have much, much more value, as far as saving, collecting, sharing, putting on a shelf to make people think you're intellectual.
And to all, I do take back the full price comment, I do know it's a reduced price, but you're still "paying" for ownership when you download it from amazon. I'd rather pay $2.99 to read it once and have it expire after 2 months, then pay $10 and be married to a piece of information for the rest of my life. When I say it's like Pay per view except you're paying full price, this is what I mean. They did reduce the cost, since you're eliminating ink and paper, but you're still 'paying to own' something you can never really 'own.'
10:13 AM
While we're talking about iTunes and other online music stores, it seems to me that even with variable pricing, the cost of downloading music IS the same as purchasing the CD.
12/09/09
I understand; music is already digitized, so no one had to do any extra work to crank out a digital copy. Books are paper, and they take work to digitize. There should, however, be some sort of acknowledgement that I own the print copy already, like a reduced-price digital version.
12/09/09
12/09/09
12/09/09
12/09/09
If more publishers did this, or provided a code you could use to download the kindle or ereader version, I would actually buy a lot more physical books, because I like to read ebooks on the go, but I also like having the hard copy for posterity.
12/09/09
12/09/09
Any eBook reader can display any number of text formats though, if you can provide them.
On that note, eBook readers do put public domain works on the same standing as published novels. It's very nice to get copies of all the classics for free, instead of having to pay a publisher for printing a hard copy.
12/09/09
12/09/09
12/09/09
With two cameras, even if you get them and keep them well aligned, you need something like clear glass to cover and flatten them and good lighting that will not be off color in rendering (i.e. not incandescent or flourescent...), and then you end up with file numbering that's in two groups and no means to smoothly put it all together.
Best $35 I ever spent.
12/09/09
12/09/09
1- Twilight
2- Harry Potter
3- whatever nonsense Oprah's pushing down the gullets of middle-aged housewives
That's it.
I'd also add that you can argue they are treating e-books like paperbacks.
12/09/09
Also: Dan Brown, the Michael Bay of authors. Actually that is too kind. He is more like the Uwe Boll of authors.
12/09/09
I for one think we should just call Danny boy's formula the "Da Vinci Code".
/SPLAT
That was the sound of my pathetic pun falling flat on its face.
12/09/09
12/09/09
Shoot me for being a shallow sellout all you want but I knew what I was getting into. And yes by pretty I meant Miss Fox, not just the FX.
12/09/09
12/09/09
12/09/09
10:06 AM
12/09/09
I feel authors tend to get shafted by publishers even harder than musicians by record labels. On the average book that is simply released by a publisher with no marketing push, signing tour, etc. you are lucky to get a 100k copy printing, and even luckier if you manage to sell all of those. The ability to self publish on Amazon, iTunes, and other stores will be a great boost to the financial return that authors see. You don't get advances, and zero marketing (how many books actually get marketing??) but at least you are getting a better cut.