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Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music

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jacobestes
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
They had jury selection, right? Here's how that went- RIAA: Have you ever downloaded music? Yes? Okay, you're out. You, have you ever downloaded music? You have? Okay you're out too.
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Benguin promoted this comment jacobestes was starred jacobestes was unstarred

Benguin
08/25/09

@jacobestes: Something tells me you're probably right.

Damned voir dire!
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Benguin was starred Benguin was unstarred

Benguin
08/25/09

@Benguin: PS: I only know that phrase because I just completed jury duty.
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Benguin was starred Benguin was unstarred

Benguin
08/25/09

Double reply fail. Go me.
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Edited by Benguin at 08/25/09 3:51 AM Benguin was starred Benguin was unstarred

Benguin
08/25/09

... make that triple. >_>
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Edited by Benguin at 08/25/09 3:51 AM Benguin was starred Benguin was unstarred

Benguin
08/25/09

@Benguin: PS: I only know that phrase because I just completed jury duty.
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Benguin was starred Benguin was unstarred

dfx
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
she never really got anything of destroying evidence, it was just an accusation because she legitimately had to change her hard drive.
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Jesus Diaz promoted this comment dfx was starred dfx was unstarred

UnderLoK
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
Looking at many of the comments it would appear that a fair amount of the viewers are just now hearing about this ancient case and aren’t privy to the fact that she was offered a much sweeter deal ($10,000 I believe? I can’t remember for sure), but decided to fight it AND destroyed the evidence.

I was in her corner initially (couple/few years back), but when it came out that she had destroyed evidence it was obvious that whatever happens she brought upon herself.

The fine itself is a joke, but she is not a good example. Also note that if you work for a TV station and for a given show you average 2.5 million viewers and you play a song that you don’t have the rights to, you have to pay for each person that saw it. I know it shouldn’t be handled this way, but that is the closest example we have outside of file sharing. I never heard people crying about Public Access getting whacked for the exact same thing by accidentally playing more than 5 seconds of a song… Happens all the time and is just as ridiculous.
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Edited by UnderLoK at 08/24/09 12:12 PM UnderLoK was starred UnderLoK was unstarred

facepuncher: you're right:
08/24/09

@UnderLoK: yeah, she definitely was stupid by her actions (aside from the illegal downloading), but can't she just file bankruptcy? "my debt outweighs any possible/forseeable income"

i HIGHLY doubt the RIAA will get any worthwhile money from this. bankruptcy or not. you'd think they would have stuck with an ammount that would actually make her feel it. $50k would be sufficient because it's an amount that she'd be able to make someday.
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Jesus Diaz promoted this comment Edited by facepuncher: you're right: at 08/24/09 12:34 PM

OCEntertainment
08/24/09

@UnderLoK: Ok, filesharing is hardly a broadcast. And her behavior is beside the point on the fine. If she is to be fined/punished separately for her handling of her hard drive, sure. But that is a crime against the court. Not the RIAA. The RIAA will be the one to receive that $1.92m (if they can ever collect from her), and if you tell me that *any* part of that money is because she destroyed her hard drive, and not because of any song she downloaded, then I'll be even more appalled than I already am.

Thankfully, that's not the case. She wasn't fined more because of her behavior. She wasn't fined more for destroying evidence. She was fined because the law provided for huge fines for individual song downloads. *That's* the part that's the problem. Not her behavior.
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UnderLoK promoted this comment OCEntertainment was starred OCEntertainment was unstarred

DeusExMach wonders what the hell happened to his star.
08/24/09

@facepuncher: uppercut my punk ass: Even though I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a lawyer, I seem to remember from my business law course that judgments against you can not be dismissed in bankruptcy proceedings.

Ponies, you wanna weigh in on this one?
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UnderLoK
08/24/09

@OCEntertainment: I totally agree, but in the broad strokes it is an individual with the ability to broadcast, broadcasting. I don’t agree with the choice, but I can see how they went from A->B->C. It’s not totally off the wall, but it is extreme in MOST cases.

In her case I believe the jury was doing just that. Had they believed her in that she was guilty, but had no knowledge of the infringement (a virus or worm as she claimed) they would have been extremely lenient, but since she destroyed evidence I'm sure they took it the way I did. The woman not only knew she was breaking the law, but tried to hide it, and is still lying about it.

Right or wrong morally is what it comes down to and everyone has their own opinions about it obviously. For me, she deserves the outcome for the reasons stated above. On a daily basis our courts dish out punishments that are meant to fit the crime. While this is extreme without a doubt, I believe it was because of the circumstances and the guidelines were created to account for this.
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aceedit1
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
This is an outrage! The riaa should offer amnesty and allow people to voluntarily pay a fee/fine, not a ridiculous amount. The only ones making money with this are the lawyers. Stop this insanity already!
AMNESTY NOW.
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HurtsSoGood promoted this comment aceedit1 was starred aceedit1 was unstarred

HurtsSoGood
08/24/09

@aceedit1: They did. Problem is, taking them up on that offer was tantamount to an admission of guilt, and you would forever forfeit your 5th Amendment rights. Understandably, not too many people took the RIAA up on that "offer."
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SigmundTheSeaMonster
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
SO, the mafia's kids graduated with law degrees, and are the government. Jokes on us!
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bucho54
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music

I didn't know Jon Lovitz was the Associate Attorney General!
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OMG! Ponies! promoted this comment bucho54 was starred bucho54 was unstarred

RyaninCalgary
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
This was a civil case wasn't it? Can she declare bankruptcy in the US?
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gaiking
08/24/09

@RyaninCalgary: I don't think you can declare bankruptcy when losing a court case...I think they put you on a payment plan.
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Edited by gaiking at 08/24/09 11:56 AM gaiking was starred gaiking was unstarred

nerve11
08/24/09

@gaiking: What a bunch of dicks. I thought Obama was a good guy... I'd probably move out of the country or something if it was me. Good luck getting those monthly payment for the next century!
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Jesus Diaz promoted this comment nerve11 was starred nerve11 was unstarred

gaiking
08/24/09

@nerve11: No politician is "A good guy"...every one of them is in someones pocket...they all make me sick.
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DeusExMach wonders what the hell happened to his star.
08/24/09

@gaiking: Don't like the system, change the system. Run for office or tsfu.
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gaiking
08/24/09

@DeusExMach believes you have his stapler: Um......I guess you're a politician because you seem really pissed that I have a bad opinion of politicians. Don't be so touchy and take it easy huh.
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Ben Zvan
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
As a photographer (read 'content producer') I'm not against a little punitive damages for copyright infringement. This is not 'a little' though.
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Septhinox
08/24/09

@Ben Zvan: This is easily into the "cruel and unusual punishment" territory.
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Nick2
08/24/09

@Septhinox: Not sure about unusual, but it sure is cruel. The punishments should be
number of songs * market value + 10%
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Nick2 was starred Nick2 was unstarred

dambo29: Rosa kicks butt!
08/24/09

@Nick2: I "like" your punishment proposal, and what I mean by "like" is that I think it's fair. Maybe even go as high as 25% but she's being charged over $1k per song when it probably costs about $1 per song (ONE THOUSAND times more!) --- WTF?
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My Secret Identity promoted this comment

Spliner
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
Totally insane. Charge her a fine for petty theft, then 0.99 per song (what it costs to buy them). Now.. if they can PROVE she shared them with someone (law requires proof doesn't it?) and can produce evidence that shows WHO she gave the song to illegally then she owes another 0.99 per song for every one she gave it to using file sharing. Eventually the music industry is going to loose because the more this stuff goes on the less people are going to buy their music. I listen to free radio now (FM and Internet), and refuse to buy another song until this crap is stopped.
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HeartBurnKid: Agent of R.O.A.C.H. promoted this comment Spliner was starred Spliner was unstarred

HeartBurnKid: Agent of R.O.A.C.H.
08/24/09

@Spliner: I agree with this completely. I refuse to ever buy music again because of crap like this.

And I like Obama's policies on most things, but his stance on copyright sticks in my craw. He's tech savvy; he should know better.
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cpthook
08/24/09

@Spliner: Gee, there'd be a huge incentive to prosecute theft if you could recover a whole 99 cents per song, wouldn't there?
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HeartBurnKid: Agent of R.O.A.C.H. promoted this comment cpthook was starred cpthook was unstarred

HeartBurnKid: Agent of R.O.A.C.H.
08/24/09

@cpthook: Theft and copyright infringement are two entirely different things. Thieves don't pay punitive damages; they simply remit what they stole (if possible) and get sent to jail as punishment. Obviously, the RIAA does not like this model, because it means they don't make any money off of it, so even they agree that piracy is not theft in the legal world, even as they make propaganda commercials telling the consumer it is.

It's doublespeak. And you fell for it.
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UnderLoK
08/24/09

@Spliner: They could have proved it, but she destroyed evidence. Had she not done so I was convinced the trial would have died a long, long time ago. Back then people either settled for a couple grand or the case was tossed out or forgotten.
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Edited by UnderLoK at 08/24/09 12:15 PM UnderLoK was starred UnderLoK was unstarred

cpthook
08/24/09

@HeartBurnKid: Agent of R.O.A.C.H.: First of all, piracy is theft. In fact, that's pretty much the definition of piracy...

Second, the RIAA is not trying to make money off of this woman, or anybody else via these suits. Do you have any idea what the legal fees likely were to get this decision (and the last one?). There is absolutely no way they will ever be recovered from this lady. This suit was purely symbolic, a message to others who illegally download music that the RIAA still gives a shit and is willing to punish those who infringe.
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HeartBurnKid: Agent of R.O.A.C.H.
08/24/09

@cpthook: I'd like to point out that, not only does the law disagree with you on that, but so does the dictionary:

theft
/θɛft/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [theft] Show IPA ,
Use theft in a Sentence
–noun
1. the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.
2. an instance of this.

pi⋅ra⋅cy
/ˈpaɪrəsi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pahy-ruh-see] Show IPA
Use piracy in a Sentence
–noun, plural -cies.
1. practice of a pirate; robbery or illegal violence at sea.
2. the unauthorized reproduction or use of a copyrighted book, recording, television program, patented invention, trademarked product, etc.: The record industry is beset with piracy.

As for your second point, if you actually believe that the RIAA spent $1.8 million on court costs, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

And your last sentence should give you pause. If piracy really is theft, why does it fall to the RIAA to punish anybody? Real thieves are punished by the criminal justice system.
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pastrychef
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
The Copyright Avengers poster says it all...
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Jesus Diaz promoted this comment pastrychef was starred pastrychef was unstarred

buttnugget
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
You forgot to factor in the prison rape. You can't put a price on prison rape...
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OMG! Ponies! promoted this comment buttnugget was starred buttnugget was unstarred

OMG! Ponies!
08/24/09

@buttnugget: Yes you can. Two cigarettes. That's how much I would pay to buy you from the Sisters.
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este
08/24/09

@OMG! Ponies!: Ah, what a good movie.
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OMG! Ponies! promoted this comment este was starred este was unstarred

nexusmerk
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
This is so wrong and I really feel for this woman. I had no respect for the big record companies before and have even less each time I read about something like this. The fine is obscene. The sooner the big record companies go out of business, the better. Do we even need these assholes anymore?
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Jesus Diaz promoted this comment nexusmerk was starred nexusmerk was unstarred

eisnein
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
so glad everyone paid attention to the full party they were electing! Of course Will.i.am wants the RIAA in place!
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Jesus Diaz promoted this comment eisnein was starred eisnein was unstarred

MarcusMaximus
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
Is she being fined for downloading songs or for uploading them? Usually they only get you for uploading music to other people, since that actually causes them damages as high as these. Obviously if you just downloaded the songs you haven't really caused them any damages aside from whatever amount you would have originally paid for them.
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Rosa Golijan approved this comment MarcusMaximus was starred MarcusMaximus was unstarred

Monty
08/24/09

@MarcusMaximus: I think you are correct that she has to pay the money for making the songs available for download, not for "stealing" (downloading) the songs herself. So, Jesus might have made a geeky technical error on sentence number one. Sorry, Jesus - you know we love you. Then again, I may have no idea what I am talking about.
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FredicvsMaximvs promoted this comment Monty was starred Monty was unstarred

Justin Paulson
08/24/09

@Monty: Yeah you are definitely wrong yo:

In this trial, the jury was instructed to find the owners' copyrights were infringed provided the ownership claims were valid and provided there was an infringement of either the reproduction right (via Thomas-Rassett "downloading copyrighted sound recordings on a peer-to-peer network, without license from the copyright owners") or the distribution right (via Thomas-Rassett "distributing copyrighted sound recordings to other users on a peer-to-peer network, without license from the copyright owners"). For each song reproduced or distributed, the infringement had to be assessed as willful or non-willful, and damages assessed accordingly. The jury was not allowed to be specific about which rights (distribution or reproduction) were infringed, and unlike in the first trial, the judge didn't attempt to define distribution.
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OMG! Ponies! promoted this comment Justin Paulson was starred Justin Paulson was unstarred

UnderLoK
08/24/09

@MarcusMaximus: She was sharing it on Kazaa back in the day (this isn't a case).
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EsmereldaMonet
08/24/09

In reply to Second Degree Murder and Six Other Crimes Cheaper than Pirating Music
18,999 possessions of marijuana in Massachusetts.

Disclosure: I am an advocate of marijuana use.
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FredicvsMaximvs promoted this comment EsmereldaMonet was starred EsmereldaMonet was unstarred

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