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Original material is licensed under a Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing with attribution.
07/20/09
Because that’s what’s going on here – they aren’t intentionally ‘making fire’, it’s incidental. MY understanding of sin is that there must be some force of will behind an act for it to be sinful – you can’t accidentally sin, nor can you sin by simply being a passive participant in your environment.
07/20/09
07/20/09
As for this couple, I may suggest that they seek the assistance of the Tzomet Institute in Israel (http://www.zomet.org.il/ ). The Institute specializes in modifying technology to aid the observant Jew, and though the site is in Hebrew (the English one is under construction) I doubt they will have trouble finding someone to translate. I believe that the Institute has dealt with this issue in the past and they may very well have a solution that will satisfy all Rabbis.
(Just to clarify, I am an Orthodox Rabbi)
07/20/09
Problem solved.
07/20/09
They have their Beliefs they agreed to pay for solving the problem... what is wrong with that?
Most of you are "inlove" with your "Non Religious" Religion so much that you simply cant understand that someone may want to keep their 2000 years Beliefs ...
And BTW, Using any kind of light is starting a fire.
Even Led, it's tiny but it still based on heating up a wire or gas.
And the switch itself can make a small "fire" when turning it on.
So - I don't practice those Beliefs but i can still understand and honor other People Beliefs.
07/20/09
1) No. It's just bat shit crazy. If someone were to file a lawsuit against a school for insisting the earth was round and only offering round globes, because their religion says soand they only offer round globes, you would likely look at this differently.
How do you feel about the intelligent design lawsuits?
You can say it's different because it's a school, it's public education, but if anything it should be more offensive to someone so open to religious beliefs.
And you can't say anything about it because it's their crazy fucking belief and that's that.
2) It isn't anti-Semitic to say that their beliefs and the lawsuit filed are crazy. The claim/complaint is the issue, not the religion it's based on.
07/20/09
07/20/09
07/20/09
I am not trying to be disrespectful towards Judaism here, but this is a practice that serves no practical purpose and should be eliminated. That and not being able to eat pork...
07/20/09
07/20/09
What does that even mean?
Fulfilling the necessary requirements to keep human beings alive kept them alive, not the absence of pork or not starting a fire one day a week and none of the other superstitious gobbledy goop.
07/20/09
Being of a specific faith forces one to make constant choices such as what people to associate with, what movies to watch, what music listen to, etc. And being of a specific faith does not give you the right to FORCE everyone else to adhere to YOUR religion's traditions and requirements.
07/19/09
07/19/09
Also, creating fire? Light bulbs are not little containers of fire.
07/19/09
07/20/09
Since there is no effort in walking past the motion sensor there is no work. Since they don't even live there full time, this is clearly a cash grab frivolous lawsuit.
07/19/09
And seeing as how this is their "vacation" flat, they'll get even less sympathy from the court. The judge will just tell them to find another place , because what they're asking is for the inconvenience of others, to provide a convenience to them.
07/19/09
They didn't have a problem with lights being turned on and off before it was automated because the lights were always on. Walking in and out of their apartment building did not mean that lights would be activated before these motion-sensing lights were utilized.
It has nothing to do with living in an apartment building either. I often see these lights near garage doors in driveways and most Jews avoid them if they know that stepping nearby will activate the lights.
07/19/09
What they are asking for is not something that will inconvenience other people. What they're asking for is to continue the motion-sensing properties of the automatic light during the week, with a manual override switch to keep the light turned on during the Sabbath. Where is the inconvenience factor? Last time I checked, people have had lights on in the hallways outside their hotel rooms for quite some time now, and I'm sure the Orthodox couple in question would be able to volunteer to turn on the manual switch before the Sabbath, or to have a timed switch that turns the lights on and off at a certain time of day (which is permissible since the timer is set before the Sabbath). Orthodoxy allows lights to burn through the Sabbath which is why electric clocks and wristwatches are allowed to continue running through the Sabbath as well as being the basis for Sabbath-permissible (shomer-shabbat) lights, which are always turned on but are "turned off" by drawing a blind across the lamp (i.e. the same concept as making a room dark by closing the drapes/blinds).
Having the judge tell them to find another place sets a dangerous precedent, because it allows any landlord who wishes to not have Orthodox tenants to be rid of them simply by installing automatic lights. Soon, all landlords will have automatic lighting (since this is now considered to be "modern" lighting) thereby establishing a loophole to equal housing laws, and denying housing to many Orthodox tenants in the vast majority of apartment buildings because their beliefs no longer permit them to live there.
07/20/09
I never used the mode, as I am "Casual Catholic", but I found it an interesting section in the owner's manual.
07/20/09
07/19/09
However, it states in the actual article that the flat was purchased under assurances that motion sensing devices would not be installed. If that's the case and they have that in writing, there is violation of contract.
I take slight offense to the statement that religion is all superstition. Quite frankly, I think that was the wrong phrase to use here, and I think the article is in poor choice altogether since it opens doors for religious bashing. There's no need to single out people who have specific observances, even though it might be a little unfathomable for those of you who live tied to your electric gadgets all day.
07/19/09
I'm sure an exhortation against making fire on the Sabbath made great sense 4,000 years ago - as a way of stopping shyster bosses from exploiting their workers, if nothing else - but now it's just loopy. Especially when, as in this case, it impinges on the rights of everyone else to live in the modern world.
How many motion-sensitive cameras do you reckon the average person sets off walking pretty much anywhere? Should they sue about that, too?
07/19/09
07/19/09
Recall that this issue is simply about a light. The light previously was one that you could turn on and off with the flip of a switch (that was probably accessible to building management, I'd suppose). The building performed an upgrade, it seems, in the interest of saving money. The monetary savings for a motion-activated light is probably not that substantial (what? $30/year?). I don't think that there are any rights impinged here. If anything, the freedom of the Jews are impinged upon.
Again, I made it clear that there are Rabbis who will make exceptions for these strict rules. Those who don't, however, often cite religious scripture to back up their claim. Please don't call that "loopy."
07/19/09
07/19/09
The rules state that you can't "make fire", correct? If that is so, I can understand not driving a car (internal combustion), using a gas oven/stove, and even an incandescent light (since it uses heat to generate light). But what about an electric car or LED light? Neither of those use fire or heat to run? Would those be acceptable?
07/19/09
The beauty of the Torah is that it's open to interpretation on the finer points but there are some main concepts that are agreed upon by everyone.
07/19/09
I'm sure that if I lived in a town inhabited entirely by Orthodox Jews and walked around on the Sabbath listening to my IPod (maybe jamming to Black Sabbath?) and mixing up margaritas on my deck, I might be called "loopy" (or worse).
The thing is, most religions have changed over time because rules that made sense 4,000 years ago no longer do today. In fact, many are now illegal (otherwise we'd still be stoning our daughters for having premarital sex, and women would still be the property of men as it states in a certain good book).
Religion is a touchy subject, always has been. Believe what you want to believe (it's your right), but you can't expect people to not think it's weird when it's so far removed from what is perceived as "normal" in modern society. It's not malicious, like i said, it's just human nature.
It shouldn't offend you that people think it's strange, it's their right to think that, just as it is your right to believe in what you believe. I think vegans are strange. Doesn't mean I am persecuting them, it's just what I believe. They shouldn't be offended by it. They can live how they want to live (probably thinking that I'm strange) and I'll live the way i want to. That's the beauty of a free society.
One thing to look forward to though: If the green movement really takes off more people might start adopting Orthodox Judaism... you know, to save more energy : )
(side note: I had a better response typed out a minute ago, but I clicked outside the comment box which apparently is the same thing as hitting the cancel button now... so that kinda sucked)
07/20/09
07/20/09
My problem with the comment in question is that it isn't impinging on anyone's rights. It's a stinkin' light, after all. Come on -- requesting to disable this light on 52 Saturdays (and the few weekday holidays we have) really shouldn't be an imposition. I respect that other people are baffled by these religious beliefs but I take offense to the fact that these people are said to be impinging on others' rights. Can't we all just get along?
(side note response: gah, that has happened to me 5282340 times on this post!)
07/20/09
Say it together now, Tolerance is proof that Religion is bullshit. I would have no need to tolerate your religion if you could prove even 1 simple fact of it, but you just cant.
07/22/09
Say I'm in a group that will not allow doors to be opened in my building on certain days unless previously opened the day before. What's the problem?...requesting people to stay in their apartments all day 52 times a year shouldn't be an imposition.
I believe in religious freedom to the point where it becomes an annoyance to others around them. If my religion said the 3rd Thursday of every month, I am required to sing the WB frog's song at the top of my lungs, should people around me have to deal with that?
07/24/09
But that would be called science, not religion.
07/24/09
To that end, the point is that it's not what OTHER people can't do -- it's what the specific Jewish couple can't do, and as Jews, we don't care what you do on our religious holidays. The bottom line is that these lights are in the public domain and one's mere presence turns them on. Haven't you ever seen those before? Think about sliding doors. We can't use those either and would have to find an alternative entrance/exit. Yes, in that case, we're mildly inconvenienced. Now let's assume it's the hallway RIGHT OUTSIDE our homes!
Asking that the lights be restored to their former glory isn't so much of an annoyance. Again, it's just a stinkin' light. It's only a request made for the Sabbath, which is a 25-hour observance. The neighbors are free to do what they want on the other days of the week. Six out of seven days ain't bad.
And again, if there was a clause about such accommodations in the contract when the couple moved in, I think we know who will lose this battle. I think it's more important at that point to look at the whole picture: an imposition on one's religious beliefs AND breach of contract. Understandably, just looking at the former is causing a lot of confusion here.
07/19/09
07/19/09
And THAT'S why I live in America, not the UK. In fact, I'd say that's why most Americans came to America in the first place. Maybe it was a little bigger than lightbulbs, but it's basically the same reason. So come on over here to the US, Mr. and Mrs. Coleman. We'll leave the light on for ya.
07/19/09
@weatherman:
07/19/09
07/19/09
07/19/09
07/19/09
07/19/09
"Saturday, Donny, is Shabbos, the Jewish day of rest. That means that I don't work, I don't get in a car, I don't fucking ride in a car, I don't pick up the phone, I don't turn on the oven, and I sure as shit don't fucking roll! Shomer shabbos! !"
07/19/09
07/19/09
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07/19/09
07/19/09
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07/19/09
If you remove religion, the world would not become some happy utopia -it would get much worse.
07/19/09
I think peace is more likely to be achieved when we can communicate rationally, meaning only accepting that which the facts support. Otherwise you get Bush going into Iraq to find WMDs because the can "feel in his gut" that they are there. You get Palin who is proud she doesn't read. I reject that. I want my decisions based on facts.
07/19/09
You must be joking or trolling or just out of touch with reality. Religion is responsible for nearly every war, conflict, and border dispute every since the first religion/god was made up.
07/19/09
Your examples, of the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and Palistine v. Israel, actually seem to support my original argument that you may or may not have even read. Each of those cases involve people using religion to justify their actions. If they didn't have religion, they would just justify it some other way. What, you think that if the Palestinians weren't Islamic they wouldn't be mad that they were wrongly removed from their land? Or if the Jews weren't Jewish they wouldn't have suffered from the Racism of the Nazis? It had nothing to do with their religion, and everything to do with their race. Or how about GWB? If he didn't claim Christianity would Republicans not have voted for him and supported him during his war? Of course they would have. It wouldn't have changed the fact that we needed the oil.
You are using Religion as a justification for your hatred and bigotry of people just as religious people use their religion to justify their hatred and bigotry. And that doesn't surprise me, because you are a person just like they are.
07/19/09
Oh, and for all GWB's failings (and there were a lot) he did hold true to his word to support AIDs relief in Africa with Billions of dollars in aid. What atheist world leader has done that?
07/19/09
What you are doing is claiming all the good done in the name of religion and dismissing all the violence. Unacceptable. You are also seemingly suggesting that non-religious people like myself aren't performing acts of selfless kindness. Also unacceptable. I spent months in Honduras helping rebuild schools and treat the poor after hurricane Mitch, my reward? Dysentery. I don't need the threat of hell to be good.
Your claim that I am bigoted is also unfair as you wouldn't respect my beliefs if I said I believe in Santa (no proof) so why should I respect your belief in god (no proof).
I don't hate anyone. I just believe communication would be more fluid between groups if there were some ground rules such as points supported by facts get precedence over those without support. In this case "motion sensing lights save energy" wins over "god gets angry when you turn on a light on Saturday".
07/19/09
Atheists do a ton of work, they just don't have an organization keeping statistics. I find your notion that one could actually quantify and compare the "good" done by the religious versus the non-religious laughable. My point is that there is no clear answer who has done more good and therefore suggesting that religion is necessary for there to be good in the world is unbelievably insulting to atheists and really, I don't mean to make an ad hominem attack here, arrogant.
07/19/09
However, these folks that take their beliefs and try to use them for stupid reasons (Read: The Crusades, Westboro "God Hates Fags" Baptist Church, myriad other examples) are what threatens reason. Don't take a single example of stupidity and try to apply it to an entire group because you don't believe with them. That in and of itself is just...well rather stupid.
07/19/09
07/19/09
07/19/09
Now to address your point, it IS illogical to believe something for which you have no proof. That is the definition of illogical. Believing in god is no more logical than believing in Santa or anything else for which there is no proof.
You suggest it is dangerous when people use their unfounded beliefs to justify "stupid" actions. I suggest it is dangerous to use unfounded belief to justify ANY action. If you want to be good, be good. Don't do it for "god". Don't do it to avoid "hell". Do it for the love of your fellow man. You don't have to believe in christ to care about other people.
07/19/09
You said "it IS illogical to believe something for which you have no proof."
I disagree. If taken as one of your assumptions, logic works fine. Religion makes assumptions on which their logical arguments are based. Most systems of thoughts make assumptions, even athiest ones. Outside of something such as phenomenology, assumptions are taken somewhere, without seeking proof or validity before logic starts. Examples: "things exist", "I exist", "helping people is better than not helping them", "logical things are better than illogical things", etc.
So within their context, religions are logical, even when they take something they have no proof for, as long as it is one of their initial assumptions.
07/19/09
Assumptions based on evidence are all well and good. I can see myself as can others, therefore I assume I exist. However to believe there is a father, son, and holy ghost with no evidence to base this assumption off of is illogical. Furthermore, much religious belief disregards strong evidence. The world is 6,000 years old? No evidence to support it and outstanding evidence to the contrary. Wildly illogical. The bible is full of demonstrably false information. Some people pick and choose what they want to believe but if the book is supposedly the "word of god" isn't it illogical to accept large parts are false without questioning the validity of the whole work?
07/19/09
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07/19/09
07/19/09
07/19/09
Anyways, I would certainly never bad mouth the good deeds or intentions of others; Shriners, Yours, or Bill Gate's. Any thing that done, for whatever motivation that brings good things to helpless people is admirable to me.
In the case presented, it appears from the article that these people consulted their lawyers more than their rabbis. These people were probably out to sue, and they picked a reason. If it wasn't this, it would have been that.
I do claim, sir, that you are bigoted. Anyone who will place preconceived judgement on an entire group of people, especially one as absurdly diverse as 'all religious people', is a textbook bigot. You should open your ears sometime, turn off the TV, and meet some people. Chances are that you will find that 'Religious People' are a very diverse group, with a very diverse history, desires, needs, thoughts, feelings, hopes, goals, morals, etc. Are there bad 'Religious People'? Yes, of course there have always been, and always will be greedy and vindictive people that will abuse any cultural system. Atheists are certainly not exempt from that fact. If the world was run by atheist instead, there would still be greedy/vindictive people.
07/19/09
07/19/09
In any case, the definition of bigotry requires that the bigot hate the group in question. I don't hate any group. My only point is that accepting someone's unfounded beliefs as valid opens the door to all sorts of unfounded belief. For the sake of productive communication, that has to stop.
It is also conversationally unproductive to make personal or ad hominem attacks. You presume a lot about me in that comment, a lot that is intended to be offensive and that can drive a conversation into an argument. I don't have TV and used to live in a house with Harvard Divinity school graduate students so I do actually know this subject. Well. Like backwards and forwards. If you don't like my opinions, attack them but don't suggest I spend all my time watching TV and don't have any friends.
07/19/09
You have no right -what so ever- to look at a person from another culture and place a preconceived judgement on the person based on their personal faith. The person will have a different history and life experiences than you. There are many people in this world, much smarter/logical/productive/caring/evil than you. Learn from them. You have no right to remove a huge aspect of their culture and history just because you have a different one.
07/19/09
My point is the same as the point the management company in the story has, namely that it sets a bad precedent. For example, if they disable an energy-saving security light so they don't anger the god of a tenant then how come I can't claim that the elevator upsets my god? Is Judiasm somehow better than my religion? The problem I see here is that these people expect strangers to accept "don't anger god" as a better rational than "save energy and provide security".
Be religious, believe in whatever you want. However don't go around imposing your belief system on other people and expect it to be respected. I'm not telling people how they should think, I'm just telling them why I won' t listen to them when they tell me how to.
07/19/09
For the record, I believe Jesus was a unicorn.
07/19/09
@The Lab:
07/19/09
07/19/09
07/19/09
@Summermodoin'_GitEmSteveDave: