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It couldn't be simpler to copy music onto a Pre, just use Explorer, and make sure your files are ripped to your preference (I like artist_name-song_title.mp3, myself).
People that rely on ID3 tags w/o proper filenames are stupid and lazy, and will at some point regret not correcting that ambiguity. Esp if they try to ftp a song with a space in the name.
iTunes? I don't care about iTunes. Never have. I think it's a great idea, but I've always wanted a little more control over my files.
One of the main reasons iTunes only works on an iPod was, in the beginning, that was how Apple could control copyright concerns from the music industry.
Some device and software combinations allowed a user to sync music from one machine, then take the music off the player and put it on another machine, right out of the box.
Apple restricted that by having the iTunes/iPod pairing.
Now that Apple sells DRM-free songs, I would expect they would be more amenable to allowing other devices to sync with iTunes.
But, Palm seems to be trying to go through the back door to do it.
Have they actually tried going to Apple and asking for permission?
Has anyone?
(I honestly don't know if they have or not)
But, at this stage, I would think Apple would license the code required to sync with iTunes without too much hassle.
It would be in their best interests.
@ottermann killed Kenny: Apple does not block access to the iTunes library. There are plenty of third-party applications that sync with iTunes, they just don't use Apple's syncing libraries.
Yeah, I really don't understand why the FTC or the notoriously anti-monopolistic EU don't beat on Apple for behaving worse than MS ever did with things like WMP and IE.
@gadam07: How is not allowing someone to spoof their product anti-competitive? If I start selling burgers and call myself McDonald's without franchising, guess who get in trouble?
Soo.... Palm could have made their own app, or even licensed DoubleTwist, but instead chose to buck USB standards and hack into Apple's software using employees they'd headhunted from Apple. And you kids say "This is all Apple's fault!"
There are plenty of media apps for the Mac that read and sync with the iTunes library without using iTunes directly(DoubleTwist, Salling Media Sync, Senuti). I see no reason to side with Palm in this particular instance.
@Kaiser-Machead: Damn near anything can read from the iTunes library. Or any part of the iLife library, for that matter. Toast does it, and who knows how many other apps do it. I think it might be part of the OS-level services, like the dictionary.
Which, by the way, is my favorite feature of OSX. An OS-level dictionary is really useful when you have more than one word-processing app -- not to mention getting spell-check pretty much any text field ever.
Seems the only real gripe left is the whole syncing utility, so the poor schlubs who don't know how to find the music on their computers can't simply manually drag and drop their non-DRM'd AAC files into whatever device they're using. My question is, why doesn't palm simply create a (good) media management program that can be used to find whatever music is on the system and simply load it into the device? Your iTunes purchases will work regardless.
If Microsoft created the Zune without a proper desktop suite and they attempted to break into the iTunes ecosystem with their hardware, would we be asking them to create their own software to work with their device instead of being pissy when it doesn't go well for them?
The music isn't inextricably tied to iTunes. The only issue is having that fact be more apparent, because iTunes has a shit-ton of file folders.
@Kaiser-Machead: I find it laughable, since there are plenty of apps for syncing with iTunes libraries... on Mac and PC! There is no reason Palm couldn't do that themselves, or even license the tech.
The problem is not that they sync with iTunes. It's how they're doing it.
If Apple thinks I’m going to buy an iPhone over another smart phone because it won’t sync with the bloated program that is iTunes, they are fooling themselves. They could make significantly more revenue selling music if they played nice with all other devices and opened up syncing. If they want to be closed minded, why don’t they block Amazon from allowing importing directly into iTunes?
@brlf: Apple makes the bulk of its profits on hardware, not the music it vends in iTunes. Allowing third-party devices to sync with iTunes would be more of a PR move than anything else. It would probably not increase their profits by very much, unless people were so moved they started buying Macbooks en masse.
As for Amazon, Apple is not directly in competition with them. Their top priority is selling iPods. If people want to put Amazon-purchased music on their iPods, the more the merrier.
The biggest problem to me is that iTunes is not just an iPod application - it's the default media player on OSX! Because of this, blocking another media device from using this app is anti-competitive. Not only is it anti-competitive, but it's not customer friendly either. I don't quite agree with how Palm is handling this, but if I was an OSX user, I would feel cheated that my default media player blocks my favorite devices from utilizing its services.
The iPod doesn't sync with WMP because Apple wants people to download iTunes. If they did update the iPod to interface with WMP, Microsoft would not block them from doing so. And if they did outright block the iPod, this too would be anti-competitive.
@George Dimitrakopoulos: WMP is not a very good example. Microsoft's initial attempts to compete with the iPod was simply them creating the software, while whatever hardware manufacturer out there made their miscellaneous devices to sync with it. WMP was meant to be open to other players, because Microsoft was not intent (at first) to make one themselves. Zune however, is a different story. If iPods were updated to work with Zune software, would Microsoft be as willing to allow the iPod to invade the Zune's proprietary space? My guess is no.
Itunes is not the default media player for OS X, Quicktime is and always had been. You TELL iTunes to handle certain media files when you first launch it.
Second Apple hasn't blocked the myriad of other iPod syncing plugins for other media players out there so its highly doubtful where MICROSOFT to allow it, they would to.
In closing you dont have a fucking clue what you are talking about
@George Dimitrakopoulos: Apple does not block other media players on the Mac OS, and as has been pointed out, QuickTime is the default media player.
I often use VLC instead. Apple has yet to send me a cease and desist.
Apple does not block syncing with the iTunes library! They just prevent you from using their software to do it. I use DoubleTwist to send media to my T-Mobile G1 all the time.
@George Dimitrakopoulos: So, using your example. XBox is being anti-competitive, because I can't play Halo on my PlayStation or Wii. Burger King is being anti-competitive because I can't buy a Whopper at McDonald's. MicroSoft is being anti-competitive because I can't run MS-SQL on my Mac or Linux box.
@stldoug: All of the things you cited are technical limitations, not forced limitations. A more apt comparison would be if Microsoft released the next version of Office with a routine that detected if it were being run on Wine, and refused to run if it was.
Well, except your thing about buying a Whopper at McDonald's, which is dumb because I can buy a Whopper at McDonald's. They call it a Quarter Pounder.
@HeartBurnKid: Agent of R.O.A.C.H.: Here is a forced limitation for you. Plug your random media player in to your windows box and launch the zune software and see if it syncs.
Jobs is not a Grand Moff. You analogy is completely off.
If Jobs was Grand Moff, he would declare that he had dissolved the USBIF. A director would say that the marketplace wouldn't stand for it and ask how industry standards would be maintained. Grand Moff Jobs would then say that the OEMs will maintain order.
While fear - fear of the iPhone - will keep the marketplace in order, that implies that Darth Wozniak would chime in to tell Grand Moff Jobs not to be too proud of the technological terror he had constructed. The power to dominate the digital music marketplace is insignificant next to the power of the Torrents.
Cute - but ultimately it fails. Grand Moff Tarkin was Vader's superior but, ultimately, he took orders from the Emperor. Sorry, Jesus.
Jobs is the Emperor; Schiller is Tarkin; and, of course, there's Darth Wozniak.
Nothing precludes you from using whatever device you want to consume non-rights managed media! It may take 2 extra seconds to drag the file out of iTunes and into your device's manager, but there's nothing stopping you from doing it.
@Nathan Obbards: There are plenty of third party apps that sync non-apple devices with iTunes. Palm just doesn't want to pay to license or develop one.
I disagree. Apple built iTunes specifically to work only with iPods and is a major contributing factor to the success of the iPod / iPhone product line. To suggest that another company has the right to come in and benefit from this, to basically steal the intellectual property Apple created and provide it to their customes without contributing in any way and without any agreement with Apple is flat-out illegal.
This is like Motorola saying it's set-top boxes should have the right to stream movies instantly from Netflix because netflix has a "almost-monopolistic position" on movie streaming.
If Palm likes iTunes so much, they should copy it, not just steal it outright.
@The Lab: If Palm likes iTunes so much, they should copy it, not just steal it outright.
There's also the option of paying royalties to be compatible a la made for iPod labeling we see on white headphones sold by Sony, Memorex, Phillips, et al.
@En0s1: Yes, that's also an option but, considering that Palm is building an outright competitor to the device that is the future of Apple, those meetings would be more contentious than two fratboys at a girlfriend sharing summit. Apple ain't gonna go for that.
@The Lab: Microsoft built Windows XP specifically to work only with Internet Explorer and is a major contributing factor to the success of Internet Explorer product line. To suggest that another company has the right to come in and benefit (Run on XP) from running on XP, to basically steal the intellectual property Microsoft created and provide it to their customers without contributing in any way and without any agreement with Microsoft is flat-out illegal.
Kinda sounds the same as the EU ragging on MS for bundling IE with XP.
@FuzzysFriedChicken: Microsoft built XP to be used with third-party applications, it is an OS. They didn't lock it down, have an approval process, and specifically outlaw apps that duplicated core functionality. iTunes, an app, is just really different from an OS.
How about this analogy, Photoshop dominates the image manipulation market. Does that mean that I can just port it to my new tablet and use it for free? Hells no. Can't steal apps.
@FuzzysFriedChicken: My iPod doesn't work with the Zune software. IE doesn't work on my Mac (without virtualization). Apple isn't bundling anything with iTunes.
What make you think that Apple need to cater to their competitors?
@The Lab: Would you argue that Microsoft has the right to only allow Zunes to sync with Windows?
iTunes CAN sync with anything, it's just artificially crippled. The fact is that we lose no matter what if Apple gets their way, and that's the problem.
That being said, Palm needs to give up on this for now, and try to get them to change it legally rather then this cat and mouse garbage.
@TriZz: What make you think that Apple need to cater to their competitors?
I didn't Say Apple needs to cater to their competitors, Apple shouldn't go out of their way to block access by competitors. Their is legal president saying Apple is in the wrong.
@Cin: See TriZz above, who preemptively answered your question. Windows is an OS, a product that has historically been open to whatever software a client wanted to install (even malware). We are talking about an app. The Zune software is the app and Microsoft should and probably does lock that app down to work only with Zunes.
@The Lab: The problem is that the Store is directly integrated into iTunes and many people have legally purchased content, be it music, TV shows, movies, whatever, that iTunes manages for them. It becomes much more difficult for them to sync the stuff they want to when they can't go through iTunes. Not only that, but iTunes content does not always play well with other media managing software. I've had it strip content off of songs when using a different player.
You should be able to manage your media how you want to with whatever devices you want to, that's why Apple should be taken to town on this one as should MS with their Zune software.
@Nathan Obbards: That's a good point (and well made) but it isn't clear that if you buy content in one ecosystem, that you have the right to move it to another. Take DVDs for instance. Did you buy the rights to the movie or the rights to watch that movie only on DVD using a DVD player? Does copying the DVD to another device like an iPod violate the contact. I'd say most people with a vested stake in the movie business would say that is a violation.
@The Lab: The difference is, Apple advertises iTunes as THE media player software for their operating system. Not the media player software for the iPod, they built the functionality into it.Windows has Windows Media Player, which caters to a large selection of PMPs. The Zune software is specifically made for the Zune.If you buy a new PC, it doesn't come with the Zune software, it comes with Windows Media Player. If you buy a new Mac, it comes with iTunes. I think as it goes, it would be fair for them to lock down iTunes if they created another media player for their operating system that would be compatible with other PMPs.
Edit: Some people may say "What's the point in trying to use iTunes if you have another PMP, why not just get a 3rd party program to do it?" Some people want to use official software with their computer. Apple does not provide adequate support for non-Apple products.
@The Lab: The thing is, you are buying the format when you buy a DVD. So when I buy a DVD, I know I can play it in any DVD player I want. When I create a playlist or buy content that is supposed to be in a standard format, I should be able to put it on any device I own that is capable of playing that format. While I am not a fan of the closed Zune system, the one nice thing it does is allow you to use playlists made in the Zune software in WMP or any player that support .wma files. That way you can load playlists onto any device. I still hate that it's closed to other devices though. With Apple, however, you have to use iTunes and iDevices to have your playlists work. The reason I have a problem with it is because for many people, iTunes is the program that they have been using for media management for 5 or more years and there hasn't been a viable or worthwhile alternative, open or closed source, till recently. So Apple is giving people who bought into their ecosystem who want to use their legally bought content with other devices are given a big fuck you.
@asten77: You're right, I should have just said "stealing". When you use software in ways that violate the rules written to govern how that software is used, you are stealing. That's the story here, an independent third party said that Palm was violating the rules governing how USB was supposed to work for the express purpose of accessing software they are prohibited from using. Perhaps there is a better term for it than theft but it sure is unscrupulous. I'm all for unscrupulous (perhaps I have a song or two I didn't pay for) but I'm not gonna get all uppity if someone calls me out on it.
@zerovampire311: Apple advertises that its products work seamlessly with each other and to take advantage of this integration, you should buy Apple products. If other companies want to make products that work hard to produce products that work seamlessly with each other, they can go ahead. Why Apple would devote resources to make its products work seamlessly with competitor's products, I don't know. If Apple followed your advice, they would be worse off and it is foolish to expect a company to make decisions that hurt them.
@Nathan Obbards: Apple gives you a choice. You can buy music that only works on their products and they subsidize it, or you can pay more and get non-DRMed MP3s you can use on any device. That seems fair to me. You are free to buy your MP3s anywhere, but if you buy them through Apple, they will encourage you to use their products.
I've always just manually synced my stuff on every non Apple MP3 player I've ever had. I probably would with my iPod's (1st gen touch and 30gb video) if it wasn't such a pita to actually do it. I hate iTunes (read: Windows user).
The USB-IF is correct that Palm shouldnt spoof the USB Vendor ID number, but it appears Apple is headed for anti-trust investigation in which they'll have to provide compelling justification for blocking other devices from syncing. And here comes the fanboys...
@Samifumi: I was going to do a fake fanboy rant but I just don't have that kind of idiocy in me. In any case, there is no monopoly there. Apple produces an MP3 player (I'm generalizing). Obviously they have to provide you with some means of getting the music on there. Enter iTunes. It manages your music and puts it on the device. How precisely is it a monopoly if Apple doesn't take the time to make their software work with other devices? I think that it's kind of childish to break the syncing with every update, but in no way does Apple have a monopoly over the MP3 player sync business.
@The Red Comet: Not after we demonstrate the power of this update. In a way, you have determined the choice of the PMP that'll be destroyed
first. Since you are reluctant to provide us with the ID of the Pre, I have chosen to test this update's destructive power...on your Pre.
What Palm has been doing was shiesty all along. I don't know how the hell they rationalized what they were doing, but that shit was wrong. Go make your own iTunes competitor. Microsoft did. Why shouldn't you?
@TheSonOfKrypton: Because they don't care about making an "iTunes competitor." They have no interest in the digital music business. They just want their users to be able to sync their music and videos natively if they already use iTunes. The problem is though that this feature is at the whim of another company, Apple, which is hostile to them. Wouldn't it be nicer though if the Zune, iPod, and Pre could all sync using whatever music software YOU like, rather than whatever they feel you should use? iTunes is perfectly capable of syncing with the Pre, it's just being artificially crippled.
@Cin: Dude, but why? iTunes shit is not DRM'd anymore. Therefore, what stops you, a Pre owner, from taking your shit from iTunes and dragging and dropping it unto your Pre orrrrrrrrrrr dragging that content unto Pre software and then syncing your Pre? Why should another company go through the burden of ensuring that all of their software updates meshes nicely with your hardware? Where the hell is the impetus?
@Cin: Apple has no obligation, legally or financially, to make iTunes compatible with anything other than the iPod. Palm should be censured for violating the rules in order to make their hardware iTunes compatible. They ought to ignore iTunes altogether, as everyone should. If we all ignore it, maybe it'll go away.
09/23/09
People that rely on ID3 tags w/o proper filenames are stupid and lazy, and will at some point regret not correcting that ambiguity. Esp if they try to ftp a song with a space in the name.
iTunes? I don't care about iTunes. Never have. I think it's a great idea, but I've always wanted a little more control over my files.
09/23/09
Some device and software combinations allowed a user to sync music from one machine, then take the music off the player and put it on another machine, right out of the box.
Apple restricted that by having the iTunes/iPod pairing.
Now that Apple sells DRM-free songs, I would expect they would be more amenable to allowing other devices to sync with iTunes.
But, Palm seems to be trying to go through the back door to do it.
Have they actually tried going to Apple and asking for permission?
Has anyone?
(I honestly don't know if they have or not)
But, at this stage, I would think Apple would license the code required to sync with iTunes without too much hassle.
It would be in their best interests.
09/23/09
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There are plenty of media apps for the Mac that read and sync with the iTunes library without using iTunes directly(DoubleTwist, Salling Media Sync, Senuti). I see no reason to side with Palm in this particular instance.
09/23/09
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09/23/09
Which, by the way, is my favorite feature of OSX. An OS-level dictionary is really useful when you have more than one word-processing app -- not to mention getting spell-check pretty much any text field ever.
09/23/09
If Microsoft created the Zune without a proper desktop suite and they attempted to break into the iTunes ecosystem with their hardware, would we be asking them to create their own software to work with their device instead of being pissy when it doesn't go well for them?
The music isn't inextricably tied to iTunes. The only issue is having that fact be more apparent, because iTunes has a shit-ton of file folders.
09/23/09
The problem is not that they sync with iTunes. It's how they're doing it.
09/23/09
09/23/09
As for Amazon, Apple is not directly in competition with them. Their top priority is selling iPods. If people want to put Amazon-purchased music on their iPods, the more the merrier.
09/23/09
The iPod doesn't sync with WMP because Apple wants people to download iTunes. If they did update the iPod to interface with WMP, Microsoft would not block them from doing so. And if they did outright block the iPod, this too would be anti-competitive.
09/23/09
09/23/09
09/23/09
Itunes is not the default media player for OS X, Quicktime is and always had been. You TELL iTunes to handle certain media files when you first launch it.
Second Apple hasn't blocked the myriad of other iPod syncing plugins for other media players out there so its highly doubtful where MICROSOFT to allow it, they would to.
In closing you dont have a fucking clue what you are talking about
09/23/09
I often use VLC instead. Apple has yet to send me a cease and desist.
Apple does not block syncing with the iTunes library! They just prevent you from using their software to do it. I use DoubleTwist to send media to my T-Mobile G1 all the time.
09/23/09
What you are saying is utter non-sense.
09/23/09
Well, except your thing about buying a Whopper at McDonald's, which is dumb because I can buy a Whopper at McDonald's. They call it a Quarter Pounder.
09/23/09
Protip it wont. OMFG MS IS KILLING INNOVATION.
09/24/09
Now, if one of them did, and then MS patched Zune Marketplace to disallow it, then that would be a forced limitation.
09/23/09
Jobs is not a Grand Moff. You analogy is completely off.
If Jobs was Grand Moff, he would declare that he had dissolved the USBIF. A director would say that the marketplace wouldn't stand for it and ask how industry standards would be maintained. Grand Moff Jobs would then say that the OEMs will maintain order.
While fear - fear of the iPhone - will keep the marketplace in order, that implies that Darth Wozniak would chime in to tell Grand Moff Jobs not to be too proud of the technological terror he had constructed. The power to dominate the digital music marketplace is insignificant next to the power of the Torrents.
Cute - but ultimately it fails. Grand Moff Tarkin was Vader's superior but, ultimately, he took orders from the Emperor. Sorry, Jesus.
Jobs is the Emperor; Schiller is Tarkin; and, of course, there's Darth Wozniak.
09/23/09
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This is like Motorola saying it's set-top boxes should have the right to stream movies instantly from Netflix because netflix has a "almost-monopolistic position" on movie streaming.
If Palm likes iTunes so much, they should copy it, not just steal it outright.
09/23/09
There's also the option of paying royalties to be compatible a la made for iPod labeling we see on white headphones sold by Sony, Memorex, Phillips, et al.
09/23/09
09/23/09
Kinda sounds the same as the EU ragging on MS for bundling IE with XP.
09/23/09
How about this analogy, Photoshop dominates the image manipulation market. Does that mean that I can just port it to my new tablet and use it for free? Hells no. Can't steal apps.
09/23/09
What make you think that Apple need to cater to their competitors?
09/23/09
iTunes CAN sync with anything, it's just artificially crippled. The fact is that we lose no matter what if Apple gets their way, and that's the problem.
That being said, Palm needs to give up on this for now, and try to get them to change it legally rather then this cat and mouse garbage.
09/23/09
I didn't Say Apple needs to cater to their competitors, Apple shouldn't go out of their way to block access by competitors. Their is legal president saying Apple is in the wrong.
[en.wikipedia.org]
09/23/09
09/23/09
You should be able to manage your media how you want to with whatever devices you want to, that's why Apple should be taken to town on this one as should MS with their Zune software.
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Edit: Some people may say "What's the point in trying to use iTunes if you have another PMP, why not just get a 3rd party program to do it?" Some people want to use official software with their computer. Apple does not provide adequate support for non-Apple products.
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first. Since you are reluctant to provide us with the ID of the Pre, I have chosen to test this update's destructive power...on your Pre.
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