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HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips

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DoctorNine
11/27/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
An update:

[in.reuters.com]

Apparently people in Indonesia are going to fight against this proposal. Manangsang is from Papua, which is part of the island famous for film of supposedly 'stone-age' natives as recently as the '70s. Frankly, this is quite interesting to watch as a natural experiment in how democratic institutions function in a period of rapid acculturation.

Although it's common for journos to use horrific imagery and invective to inflame public opinion, in order to recruit readers for whatever political purpose the author intends, this particular proposal doesn't really resemble anything the Nazis did historically.

Then again, you wouldn't get as many hits on your website if you didn't use the Nazi header. Well done, Giz!
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mpjohnst
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
This discussion makes me think some of these people on this thread should go travel/live in Indonesia for a while before they so blindly trust the government's efforts!

your US paradigm != the ave. Indonesian's reality
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DoctorNine
11/26/08

@mpjohnst: Hyperbole isn't a cogent argument. How active are you in attmpting to correct the draconian security practices of your our government? It is easy to sit in the security of a western democracy and decry the practices of governments in other parts of the world. To be consistent, you would have to understand, and be vocal about many more such invasive monitoring technologies in place in the US, Great Britain, etc. Are you? If not, then that is simple hypocrisy. Which is the reason that the Islamic world won't take such accusations of human rights abuses seriously. Clean up your own yard, before you call attention to the height of the neighbors' hedge.
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mpjohnst
11/26/08

@DoctorNine, Experimental Vehicle Type II B: Maybe you should re-read my post before making so many ASSumptions about me. I have traveled and lived abroad in many countries, and I actively work to weaken or repeal legislation in this country that I find discriminatory.

Had you actually read my post, you would realize that you are supporting my point. I'm surprised at the positive response here, so I was critical of posters here (i.e. in the "west") assuming that their reality was the same reality that this program would be implemented in. This is not surprising to me, given how few people in the US travel abroad, or even own passports. That said, I'm still baffled at people thinking a program like this would ever be "fairly and justly" implemented... even here.
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DoctorNine
11/26/08

@mpjohnst: "..I have traveled and lived abroad in many countries, and I actively work to weaken or repeal legislation in this country that I find discriminatory..."

Fair enough. That's all any of us can do, really, anyway. Unfortunately, there's more heat than light in the blogosphere, even one as enlightened as Giz and the Gawker Network. Invective is tiresome. My apologies.
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Curves
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
I love the smell of banhammer in the air....and for all the idiots we have spouting half truths and idiocy we also have some very compelling and well thought out comments and debate. Threads like this are why I love Giz.
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sozoroaruki
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
Uhhhhh.. Jesus Diaz... Are you saying that you don't feel that it is appropriate to punish those who knowingly infect others with HIV in the name of (their own) pleasure?

If I accost someone on the street and inject that person with the HIV virus using a syringe, do I not become the worst kind of criminal? If, on the other hand, I had HIV and knew so and led a sexual partner of mine to believe that I did not, and had sex with that person, causing him/her to contract HIV, my penis being the implement facilitating the virus' ingress into the person's body rather than a syringe, would I not in this case be a criminal of the highest and worst order just as I would be if I simply used a syringe to inject the person with the virus as in my former example? For I should be infecting a person with a terrible and (for the time being) incurable disease in order to engender pleasureful feelings for myself.

This program may cause a bit of suffering for those infected with aids, but this is not a human right violation, because no human being has the right to infect another with HIV to gratify himself.

Why don't you take a moment to perform a bit of cursory cost-benefit analysis? Imagine if you were in the position of this, in your words, "Himmler-wannabe" for a moment. You have the choice to stifle the freedom of a smaller group of people and the choice to preserve their freedom but at the expense of their future victims. (And their victims, if not kept in check, will go on to make others THEIR victims and so on and so forth.)

You see, by inconveniencing a fairly small group of people now (by preventing them from victimizing others with an HIV infection), you can free and protect a much larger group of people from the suffering that AIDS precipitates. This action, as I see it then, is perfectly in line with utilitarian ethics, a form of ethics which I deem to be the paragon of all forms of ethics. The very purpose of government is to put limitations on peoples' freedom and thus on their capacity to harm one another; this is ultimately done in order to create the greatest amount of happiness for the greatest number of people and the least amount of suffering for the least number of people (utilitarianism).

The Nazis put identifying symbols on those who posed no threat to anyone, people who were not criminals in any sense, not in the name of preserving the welfare of the majority, but rather for the sake of "purifying" the German people. Another difference is that the Nazis killed those whose clothing was thus emblazoned with identifying marks, whereas those Indonesians who infect others with HIV (and essentially sentencing them to death) will not receive capital punishment, but rather will simply be tossed in prison(?)... as they should be!

In short, Jesus Diaz, you are a moron and I can't believe you are allowed to write such sensationalistic, editorializing, bilge-water articles and actually submit them to the front page of well-known and widely read news site like Gizmodo. You fail colossally at civics, ethics, philosophy, and basic reasoning.
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Thats Dr Bear to You
11/25/08

@sozoroaruki: Those are a lot of words just to prove to people you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Utilitarism is a flawed philosphy that screws over the minority in every way and your broad use of the social contract theory shows that you don't really understand the principle behind it.
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sozoroaruki
11/25/08

@Thats Dr Bear to You:

"Utilitarism" you say? I am tempted to think that one who can actually spell the term is apt to know a great deal more about it than one who can not.

You say that "Utilitarism is a flawed philosphy that screws over the minority in every way". Yes? And what would you prefer? That the majority be screwed over in order to promote the welfare of the minority? Does that make any sense? You have to screw some number of people over... why choose to screw over the larger group rather than the smaller?

As usual, I find that those who are opposed to utilitarianism are so because they are committing some variation of the gambler's fallacy, and because they tend to empathize and identify with minority rather than the majority in the course of examining the worthiness of utilitarian ethics.

The only who has made himself out to be ignorant is you.
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Thats Dr Bear to You
11/25/08

@sozoroaruki: Thanks for the spelling lesson, professor, that is a witty comeback to my previous statement and you should be proud of yourself....

I just find it funny that you promote utilitarianism in one paragraph and then praise social contract theory, a theory that by it's very nature allows a small group (government) to regulate what the larger population is allowed to do.

And is empathy for the minority such a horrible thing for a government? Freeing slaves goes against the philosphy of utilitarianism, so does that mean that it was a bad idea? It is the government's role to balance minority rights against the rights of the majority, we as a people expressly give up certain rights in order for us all to have social stability.

But then what do I know I'm ignorant?
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Rabid Penguin
11/25/08

@Thats Dr Bear to You: "It is the government's role to balance minority rights against the rights of the majority" The United States is based around the rights of the individual, not minority or majority groups. Unless you count the individual as the ultimate minority.

It's not the governments role to balance rights of majorities vs minorities groups, it is the governments job to uphold the rights of the individual. Which is quite a bit different.
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Jrsy Devil's Advocate®
11/25/08

@sozoroaruki: Before you start calling people moron let's get a few things straight here.

First, tagging someone with HIV/AIDS will not in any way stop them from having sex so why tag them to begin with? Second, just because the Indonesian government is intending on tracking these people how exactly do they know if and when the infected person is having sex? Since non-infected people would not be tagged they would have no way of knowing if the tagged person is alone or has a companion with them. So what's next? Thermal imaging scanners? Street mounted cameras and microphones? It would require serious invasions of privacy to determine if an HIV/AIDS infected person was engaging in sex. Third, how is the selection process being determined? Is everyone HIV/AIDS infected getting tagged or just those deemed 'sexually active', and what's the criteria for that, questionares?

"You have HIV or AIDS. Are you sexually active?"

"Uhm, no."

Are they going to be tagged after being convicted of knowingly having sex with someone non-infected or is the governemt just just going to assume all infected people will commit the crime so tag 'em all and let God sort them out first?? If someone has been caught, found guilty and convicted of doing this they should be getting life in prison, not being tagged and released so they can do it again. Tagging them before the crime is wrong. It assumes guilt and it stigmatizes these people even further not to mention the fact that I'm certain the money and resources used for the RFID program could probably be put to better use elsewhere in Indonesia. Using this technology will not prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS unless the government plans on outfitting all non-infected people with RFID readers so they will know if the person they're about to do the nasty with is safe or not.

There's an easier way to do that. Make all the infected wear a Scarlet letter...
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Jrsy Devil's Advocate®
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
Why not implant chips in their hands that blink when they turn 30??

Or better yet why not segregate the population and have AIDS colonies instead of Lepers?

Or we could just nuke Indonesia from orbit. After all, it's the only way to be sure...

Sigh.... this topic makes me sad on so many different levels.
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Rabid Penguin
11/25/08

@Jrsy is back to being the dude, playing the dude disguised ...: That's a great idea. Then the AIDS/HIV victims can just get on carousel and wait to be renewed. Problem solved.
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Alchemistmerlin
11/25/08

@Jrsy is back to being the dude, playing the dude disguised ...:

Why not be reactionary and post no viable alternative?
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qbrad
11/25/08

@Jrsy is back to being the dude, playing the dude disguised ...: Run, runner!
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Jrsy Devil's Advocate®
11/25/08

@Alchemistmerlin: Because my alternatives are not viable. They border on the point of insanity, which coincidentally enough is exactly what I think of this hair-brained scheme the Indonesian government is cooking up.

Let's see how far this goes when one of their politicians accidentally contracts HIV. You'll see how fast this gets turned around or has some exception ammendment added to it...
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vgart
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
WOW, slowly killing patience with radiation. That's Nazi alright.....
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Rabid Penguin
11/25/08

@vgart: Radiation therapy is used to help cure lots of stuff... But how many people do you know have gotten cancer from cell phones, computer monitors, radios, using a microwave? I think they'll be okay if the radiation is what you're worried about.
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DoctorNine
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
(anthropologist) Indonesia is the largest predominantly Muslim country on the planet. It is an interesting place, in that some parts of daily life there are remarkable progressive, while other institutions still maintain the traditions of feudal Islam. While we in the West tend to view all societal interactions through the lens of egalitarian and individualistic ideals, that isn't the case in Indonesia, or indeed much of that area of the world. We may recoil at the historical images this conjures up from our collective past, such as yellow stars, pink triangles, or branding of slaves, but that cultural reference point does not resonate for contemporary Indonesia. They develop their own legal solutions, based upon their own ideology and cultural reference points. Therefore, casting this proposal as Nazi-inspired, or any such emotional headline, really is simply another example of the West failing to understand Islamic culture and attitudes as practiced in its most populous nation. They will utilize whatever technology they acquire in ways which a more egalitarian West might find abhorrent, but which fits for them. How they eventually evolve in their sense of personal freedoms, and how we evolve in our ability to coexist with views other than our own, will determine the trajectory of the collision of these two value systems. To date, the intransigence of both sides has led to outcomes which all can agree have not been the most productive. There may be a better way to approach the situation. (/anthropologist)
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mpjohnst
11/25/08

@DoctorNine, Experimental Vehicle Type II B: I guess (anthorpologist)(/anthropologist) tags also make public beheadings and female genital mutilation humane too?
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DoctorNine
11/25/08

@mpjohnst: I am a medical school prof, anthropologist and physician who has lived all over the world. I guess we could trade a tit for tat on which culture is more barbaric, modern Indonesian, or modern American. But I doubt that you really have even seen FGM in a patient, like I have, or had to counsel a woman's family about why, after I delivered her, I wasn't going to sew her introitus shut. There are plenty of horrors on both sides of the cultural divide. I think it might be better to address the causes of this impulse toward brutality, and work to understand the cultural well from which they spring, so that we can find some accommodation. The world is very small place. And not everyone has western sensibilities. In reality, cultural imperialism is not a methodology of coexistence.
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Demosthenes7898
11/25/08

@DoctorNine, Experimental Vehicle Type II B:

Just goes to show you just how subjective morality is.
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DoctorNine
11/25/08

@Demosthenes7898: What's interesting, is that within each major cultural division, there are also subcultures which reject or accentuate elements of the dominant culture. Even though most mores derive, at least nominally, from some religious orientation, those moral viewpoints eventually become secularized, and generalized even to those members of society not within the parent religious affiliation. So we can see 'The Golden Rule' in the West, even in ostensibly non-Christian households, and calls for the Shariat by individuals in Indonesia who might actually have their freedoms limited by such a system, but who are afraid of western decadence and apostacy. It must be remembered that society enforces orthodoxy by sanctions applied to those who do not toe the line. The strength of the imperative to maintain that orthodoxy is directly related to the severity of the sanctions imposed upon those who fail to maintain the orthodoxy. During a similar phase in Christianity, the West had the Inquisition. Watching Islam move from medieval to 21st century practices, we should not be surprised by the juxtaposition of very advanced technology with very ancient abstractions about mores, sexual and otherwise. Being too quick to pass judgement, exposes the West to valid criticisms of our own hypocrisy with regard to our own peccadillos.
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Oh yeah, I still have a clock and a pencil!
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
Cuba actually quarantines their AIDS infected populace, so outside of the quarantine area the affected populace totals about .001%.
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Jesus Diaz
11/25/08

@Kevin: What the hell are you talking about? Care to provide with any evidence of that?

And if that was the case, how does it change the fact that this RFID thing is wrong?
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ANoel
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
RFID tags are the new AIDS.

=\
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Qwizatblah
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
I've seen this story in an AP article that reads sexually "aggressive" and not "active". Saying the chipping is aimed at chronic offenders, patients who are out knowingly infecting other people.

[www.time.com]

If the law is in face aimed at chipping every person found to carry the virus then I completely agree with the stance that it is both the wrong course of action and ethically unsound.

On the other hand, people who run around killing other people have their civil liberties infringed upon all the time. We call it jail.
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Jesus Diaz
11/25/08

@Qwizatblah:

Under the bylaw, which has caused uproar among human rights activists, patients who had shown "actively sexual behavior" could be implanted with a microchip to monitor their activity, lawmaker John Manangsang said.

"It's a simple technology. A signal from the microchip will track their movements and this will be received by monitoring authorities," Manangsang said.

If a patient with HIV/AIDS was found to have infected a healthy person, there would be a penalty, he said without elaborating.

What is "sexually aggressive" or "sexually active"? What do you mean "chronic offenders"?

You mean people who fuck a lot? Are those the "chronic offenders"? Offending who? Do you think these men and women go around trying to infect others?

Have you read the reasons for the 200x VIH rate in that area? Lack of condoms. Lack of education. Culture problems.

How do you solve the those problems? Punishing people who want to have sex? Putting them in a ghetto so they don't have sex with "healthy" people? Who's next in this list? People with other STDs? Gays?

Are you saying here that the government has the power to decide who does or doesn't have sex?

Isn't education and condoms a better way to stop the spreading of a disease than punishing people and treating them like cattle? Should we prohibit sex to HIV infected people or provide the means to avoid infection?
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Jesus Diaz
11/25/08

@Jesus Diaz: In case it's not clear, my point is that once an government starts making lists, then the door opens to potential hell. Nobody has the right to label us according to sexual practices, sexual orientation, color, thoughts, religion, political ideas.

It's called Human Rights. There are NO exceptions to Human Rights. No trading. No rights abolition in the name of a "greater good" (usually defined by people like Hitler). Human Rights are absolute, by definition. Hence, the solution has to be another, not RFID tagging and punishment.
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Rabid Penguin
11/25/08

@Jesus Diaz: What do you do with people that have a deadly, incurable disease that is spread through an act that they insist on continuing to do?
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Jesus Diaz
11/25/08

@Rabid Penguin: I think people need to be educated about it to avoid infection, but NEVER DENIED of any of their rights, which include privacy and the right to have sex with whoever they want.
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Rabid Penguin
11/25/08

@Jesus Diaz: I think people are educated about it. They have the knowledge. They lack the wisdom. Especially in America, people know about STDs, yet some people choose to sleep around regardless. All the condoms in the world won't solve that problem. I don't think government should be telling people who they can sleep with, but if you know you have a deadly disease that is transmitted through sex, then it should almost be considered murder if you have sex with someone before telling them you have said disease. That's not to say that I think people should be branded (I don't), but if you do commit the crime, you should do the time.
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scarbrtj
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
This slope has AstroGlide all over it.
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Curves
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
People are already afraid to get tested for fear of discrimination, this will only make it worse meaning the spread will continue.
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ZaxxonQ.com
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
I guess I'll be the asshole to say it:

As someone who has not been infected, I can honestly say that I would be grateful to have this implemented for all infected persons. There are too many people out there that do not have the right frame of mind. There are those that will lie to get what they want, and others that will feel angry at the world and think that everyone else should be infected also. It's horrible to say it, but it is true. If I was infected, I would have no problem with being tagged. I would not want to get anyone else sick. I'd stay at home if I could.
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scarbrtj
11/25/08

@Zaxxon Q Blaque:

There are too many people out there that do not have the right frame of mind. There are those that will lie to get what they want...

You're gonna have to RFID-implant nearly all of humanity, bro, if this is your criteria.

If I was infected, I would have no problem with being tagged. I would not want to get anyone else sick. I'd stay at home if I could.

And, uhh, you don't have to stay home to keep from HIV-infecting others. What in heck are you talkin' 'bout?

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mpjohnst
11/25/08

@Zaxxon Q Blaque: Why stop at the HIV/AIDs population then? Why not tag gun owners, aggressive motorists, wife beaters, heavy drinkers, smokers, mal-adjusted computer-using shut-ins, obese people, people with birth defects, or yes, Jews, Muslims, Christians, atheists, etc... This is discrimination against a sub-set of the population, plain and simple. And it always starts under the guise or protection or safety.

You may be more comfortable having some sort of technological validation of your discrimination, but it is just wrong, wrong, wrong in my opinion and is a VERY slippery slope leading to the above. As GWB reminded us, the only people who should worry about the gov't listening to their conversations is the terrorists... your not a terrorist are you?
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ZaxxonQ.com
11/25/08

@mpjohnst: Oh dear. *roll* A Bush lover.

@Husar: Didn't say I had stats, but there are reports of those individuals that feel that way, mostly due to the onset of depression brought on by their diagnosis. It's happened before. There are horrible people in this world! >_<

@scarbrtj: Okay, maybe staying at home is a bit extreme, but it would make me feel better. Yes, there are liars everywhere, but how many liars would infect you with a terminal disease that they knew they had just to get some nook-nook?
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Toastie
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
"using RFID technology to reduce people to cattle" Aren't cattle revered as Gods in their country? See religion has this one covered guys, this must be an honor in their country!
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Rabid Penguin
11/25/08

@Toastie: Some non-religious groups (PETA) hold the same belief.
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92BuickLeSabre
11/25/08

In reply to HIV/AIDS Patients to Be Tagged with RFID Chips
Royally

Fucked Up

In

Deed.
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matt buchanan
11/25/08

@92BuickLeSabre: You can do better than that. I have faith in you.
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92BuickLeSabre
11/25/08

@matt buchanan: Damn it, not with that kind of pressure I can't.
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Ibelieveinsandwitches
11/25/08

@92BuickLeSabre:

how about

Regional

Fuhrer

Is

Damned
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Con Seannery
11/25/08

@Ibelieveinsandwitches:

Really

Fucking

Idiotic

Deployment
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92BuickLeSabre
11/25/08

@Con Seannery:

"Ritual

Fucking

Is

Deadly?

Radio

Follow them!"

Indonesian

Douchebags
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