That's actually really, really interesting. Basically, the way a space vehicle works is you fling stuff out the back. The exhaust gains some momentum in one direction and you get an equal amount of momentum in the direction you want to go. Chemical rockets work by shooting large amounts of propellant (exhaust) out the back at low speeds. Electrical rockets work by shooting out a lot less propellant, at much higher speeds. The amount of momentum you gain for a given amount of propellant is known as specific impulse, and generally the bigger number the better. Increasing specific impulse can have a huge impact on the fuel requirements for a given mission, which is why electrical engines (with very high specific impulses) are so interesting.
But what Hilbert proposed is that you can actually get MORE momentum out of your propellant than you put in, if your exhaust speed is above half the speed of light. Now usually what relativity giveth, relativity taketh away. But assuming that there aren't any gotchas that make this useless in practical terms (big assumption), it could point the way toward engine designs which require an order of magnitude less fuel than even fancy shmancy electrical engines.
@otko: Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a Supercollider and that would end your trip real quick...
I freaking LOVE stories about the LHC! Why do we care so much about who's banging who in Hollywood and what color shoes the First Lady wore to the inauguration but meanwhile this amazing project and every related story concerning it gets put on the back burner? I think I know the answer to my question.....
Gravity Rules! Why is that you ask? Well let me tell you. Gravity is not only a unique in that it is extraordinarily weak force in comparison to its brethren, but also in the fact that it can be much, MUCH, stronger. You see the neat thing about gravity is that it has no upper bound. What do I mean by that? While all the other forces in comparison are much stronger they have limits, were as gravity just keep piling up. Add some more mass, get some more gravity. So much in fact that even light itself (which by the way has no mass) cannot escape its pull, when you have enough mass all in one place.
Indeed gravity rules everything, it's what holds you to the Earth, and what holds the Earth in orbit around the Sun. And even cooler still, its pull (knowing no limitations of distance) even holds our Solar System in orbit around the Galactic center.
So what else can I say about gravity? Lots, but I think I've gone on long enough.
@magoocas: Here's a tip from an actual scientist: Science is not cool. Science just is. Don't try and make it hip or relevant. Don't try to anthropomorphocize it. Just learn it, enjoy understanding how things work, and use it.
Also, if you pile up atoms, you get more gravity but if you piled up electrons you'd get more charge and the force of the charge would far outstrip the... Oh wait, you are high, aren't you?
@magoocas: Here's a tip from another actual scientist: I genuinely enjoyed your enthusiasm and clarity to topic. Your comment was a bit dilated, though.
@The Lab: Science is too cool! You might be an actual scientist, but you're also a drip and a killjoy. Or someone who lost their passion for their work.
@The Lab: So we all have to suffer because you chose the wrong profession and are so jaded and bitter that you can't see the forest for the trees?
If you're so unhappy, McDonald's is always hiring.
@Homerjay likes Belgiumese Puke Porn: Reread my post. I said "enjoy understanding how things work". That's how I enjoy science and I believe that is the best way to appreciate science.
The scientists who fall out of love with science are the ones who talk like the original poster. The ones who sex it up. The ones that look for truths greater than the simple truth of understanding.
Having mentored many young scientists, I've found the most effective way to communicate the intoxicating excitement of discovery is to not overpromise, not oversell, but to enjoy the simple pleasure of understanding because that is all science is.
@Shawn Pero: I enjoy my work. I actually mention that in my post, I enjoy understanding how things work. However there is nothing "cool" about it. As Xanderbeedle above said, 99% of people don't care about pure science. Real scientists do what we do out of the love of understanding but it does make us irrelevant in a social context and when people try and "sex it up" but overblown descriptions, they inevitably over exaggerate, just like the original poster. I am just tired of people trying to explain science in a way that gets normal people excited when 99% of normal people aren't interested in science. Even Feynman's most popular stories are about people, not actual scientific concepts, and he's an amazing educator. There just isn't an audience. Believe me, I wish there were, Id love to teach but you only get real money for research.
@Flyingchromelaserturd: I've seen him on the Daily Show and he very seriously distorts science to make it more interesting. He does get paid, but I don't want to get paid for exaggerating.
@The Lab: If the disagreement is on "cool" and public perception, my experience is quite the opposite. Many of my friends and family regularly ask me to explain all sorts of modern concepts and discoveries. So long as I take the time to provide an explanation within the grasp of their view, the excitement you mention is shared. We discuss for hours. The result? Them saying resoundingly and often, "That's so cool!"
The understanding is exciting, for a certainty. I would add that there's no lack of awe or interest on the public's behalf. Maybe this is only more recently true with science and technology becoming such a key element in our daily lives, and something easily kept track of passingly over the 'net.
Giz itself is just one testament to the "cool" of science. I doubt the readership is 100% technicians, engineers and/or scientists.
@Fractal the Meek: The issue could also hinge on your definition of "science". I see gadgets as applied science but not science. Explaining how things work could be science. When I think of science, I think of the practice of framing a scientific question, designing and running experiments that answer the question, and performing statistical analysis necessary to figure out if the question was answered.
So some people like to hear the news about what science has learned, but fewer people like to hear about actual science, as in how it is learned.
@The Lab: Spot on distinction. My conception of science would be broader, and I'd sooner call what you describe "the actual doing of science."
But then isn't science in the same boat as any other art of public interest? Whether music, cuisine or a scientific design, don't we all just gather in awe to reap the reward of the performance?
Space travel is cool. A map of gravitational contours would be cool. Its computation will be awesome. The people who do the work are brilliant. But you're right, I won't ever do this in particular myself. Reading and talking about it is also cool, though.
@The Lab: Interestingly enough in a classical view of the world you would be correct (And also assuming that you could indeed "Pile up" a bunch of electrons in one place). There would be no theoretical limit to the strength of an magnetic field (hence electric). But taking into account Quantum Mechanics and Relativity, this fiction quickly unravels.
Fortunately for all of us, I was neither high nor incorrect, and I suspect your "
actual scientist" if s/he was an "actual scientist" would strongly disagree with you. If you're interested, here is the link to back me up: [tinyurl.com] (I'm not actually sure how to embed a link properly).
And I'm sure you'll be pleased to note that this explanation has not been "Anthropomorphized" in the least. (It just talks about the limit of electric fields not the aforementioned lack of limit on gravity, but I'm sure a quick google search would satisfy your curiosity)
Finally to paraphrase FlyingChromeLazer:
Dr. Tyson would not approve... For Shame
@magoocas: Actually you did anthropomorphize gravity when you claimed it "ruled" "in comparison to its brethren". That is a textbook example.
I read your link and you seem to be saying that gravity "rules" because electric fields can get so strong they eventually literally create matter in the form of a positron and electron. Yeah that sounds weak. All I am saying is that with an object the size of the moon, gravity is still weak whereas it is much easier to create many orders of magnitude more force with far less matter if you use charge. The fact that gravity goes to infinity is interesting only if you had access to infinite mass.
You can continue to breathlessly claim that "gravity rulez" but here on Earth you are far better off using a force that can produce significant effects without needing a chunk of matter the size of a nation.
@The Lab: Do not misquote me sir. You have severely misconstrued my original statement. The quote was:
"Gravity is not only a unique in that it is extraordinarily weak force in comparison to its brethren, but also in the fact that it can be much, MUCH, stronger."
That statement is most certainly true. Please be more careful next time when you decide to "quote" some one, ensure that you are actually doing so.
And I do acknowledge that my original post was of course anthropomorphizing the subject. My statement: "And I'm sure you'll be pleased to note that this explanation has not been "Anthropomorphized" in the least." was meant as a double meaning. First that I obviously disagree with you that do so is a bad thing, and second that my source was not doing it.
For someone that claims to be so interested in the raw pursuit of knowledge without sexing it up (As you so eloquently put it in another post), you are amazingly uninterested in actual science.
You have missed the point all together. I wasn't just talking about the sun, or the moon. I was talking about Black Holes, and more specifically when I claimed that gravity holds our galaxy together, I was alluding to the super massive black hole and dark matter that are responsible for generating this gravity.
I feel as though I have covered my basis on this subject, and so this is my last post on this thread.
Not to get all sciencey, but it seems like both the math and time-scales involved in finding the libration points for a non-circular three-body problem would be more trouble than it would be worth. Perhaps interesting in a theoretical way, but otherwise, if you're out to save fuel, why not simply make better utilization of that same gravity in addition to something like hydrogen-based magnetoplasmadynamic ionic thrusters.
@soccer1105: Pretty shitty translation. Here's a better one: The inefficacity of this enterprise makes it an inefficient use of time and resources, except for scholastic purposes. It would be better to instead supplement this with other propulsion techniques, such as ionic thrusters.
Gravity is such a weak force (after all, any 2 year old can easily overcome the gravity of the entire Earth with a single jump), it's hard to see how gravity currents could be useful for all but the most leisurely space tourist.
@frigg: Gravity gets a bad rap. It's only weak by human standards, and on Earth. What if you were a fire-and-plasma-proof Ant on the Sun? You'd hate gravity. It would always be crushin' your shit.
@frigg: I was not aware that jumping 2 year olds negated gravity's effect and floated off randomly. I'll have to watch for that more often at the park. Thanks for the heads up.
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Okay, it is actually kind of cool.
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But what Hilbert proposed is that you can actually get MORE momentum out of your propellant than you put in, if your exhaust speed is above half the speed of light. Now usually what relativity giveth, relativity taketh away. But assuming that there aren't any gotchas that make this useless in practical terms (big assumption), it could point the way toward engine designs which require an order of magnitude less fuel than even fancy shmancy electrical engines.
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@Jrsy Devil's Bright Idea®:
LHC or Death Star Laser Tunnel?
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Indeed gravity rules everything, it's what holds you to the Earth, and what holds the Earth in orbit around the Sun. And even cooler still, its pull (knowing no limitations of distance) even holds our Solar System in orbit around the Galactic center.
So what else can I say about gravity? Lots, but I think I've gone on long enough.
09/19/09
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Also, if you pile up atoms, you get more gravity but if you piled up electrons you'd get more charge and the force of the charge would far outstrip the... Oh wait, you are high, aren't you?
09/19/09
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09/19/09
If you're so unhappy, McDonald's is always hiring.
09/19/09
The scientists who fall out of love with science are the ones who talk like the original poster. The ones who sex it up. The ones that look for truths greater than the simple truth of understanding.
Having mentored many young scientists, I've found the most effective way to communicate the intoxicating excitement of discovery is to not overpromise, not oversell, but to enjoy the simple pleasure of understanding because that is all science is.
09/19/09
09/19/09
@The Lab: I believe this gentleman might disagree with you.
09/19/09
That's my boy!!!! Neil is the man!!!!
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The understanding is exciting, for a certainty. I would add that there's no lack of awe or interest on the public's behalf. Maybe this is only more recently true with science and technology becoming such a key element in our daily lives, and something easily kept track of passingly over the 'net.
Giz itself is just one testament to the "cool" of science. I doubt the readership is 100% technicians, engineers and/or scientists.
09/19/09
So some people like to hear the news about what science has learned, but fewer people like to hear about actual science, as in how it is learned.
09/19/09
But then isn't science in the same boat as any other art of public interest? Whether music, cuisine or a scientific design, don't we all just gather in awe to reap the reward of the performance?
Space travel is cool. A map of gravitational contours would be cool. Its computation will be awesome. The people who do the work are brilliant. But you're right, I won't ever do this in particular myself. Reading and talking about it is also cool, though.
09/20/09
Fortunately for all of us, I was neither high nor incorrect, and I suspect your "
actual scientist" if s/he was an "actual scientist" would strongly disagree with you. If you're interested, here is the link to back me up: [tinyurl.com] (I'm not actually sure how to embed a link properly).
And I'm sure you'll be pleased to note that this explanation has not been "Anthropomorphized" in the least. (It just talks about the limit of electric fields not the aforementioned lack of limit on gravity, but I'm sure a quick google search would satisfy your curiosity)
Finally to paraphrase FlyingChromeLazer:
Dr. Tyson would not approve... For Shame
09/20/09
I read your link and you seem to be saying that gravity "rules" because electric fields can get so strong they eventually literally create matter in the form of a positron and electron. Yeah that sounds weak. All I am saying is that with an object the size of the moon, gravity is still weak whereas it is much easier to create many orders of magnitude more force with far less matter if you use charge. The fact that gravity goes to infinity is interesting only if you had access to infinite mass.
You can continue to breathlessly claim that "gravity rulez" but here on Earth you are far better off using a force that can produce significant effects without needing a chunk of matter the size of a nation.
09/20/09
"Gravity is not only a unique in that it is extraordinarily weak force in comparison to its brethren, but also in the fact that it can be much, MUCH, stronger."
That statement is most certainly true. Please be more careful next time when you decide to "quote" some one, ensure that you are actually doing so.
And I do acknowledge that my original post was of course anthropomorphizing the subject. My statement: "And I'm sure you'll be pleased to note that this explanation has not been "Anthropomorphized" in the least." was meant as a double meaning. First that I obviously disagree with you that do so is a bad thing, and second that my source was not doing it.
For someone that claims to be so interested in the raw pursuit of knowledge without sexing it up (As you so eloquently put it in another post), you are amazingly uninterested in actual science.
You have missed the point all together. I wasn't just talking about the sun, or the moon. I was talking about Black Holes, and more specifically when I claimed that gravity holds our galaxy together, I was alluding to the super massive black hole and dark matter that are responsible for generating this gravity.
I feel as though I have covered my basis on this subject, and so this is my last post on this thread.
Thanks
09/18/09
Arthur C. Clarke invented satellite communications.
That's...that's about all I have to add.
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:(
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