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Local Dimmed LCD vs Normal LCD
Toshiba's First LED LCD HDTVs: The Regza XV648, ZV650, SV670
Toshiba's New Regzas Add 240Hz, LED Backlight On the Top-End SV670 Series

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EvanPelican
09/10/09

In reply to Local Dimmed LCD vs Normal LCD
According to Toshiba, their Black goes to eleven
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ceilingFANBOY
09/10/09

In reply to Local Dimmed LCD vs Normal LCD
The problem with local dimming appears when you have dark and bright things next to each other. This can result in halos around bright images or a loss of detail in dark areas. For example, look at the hexagon of lights at the top of the image. Because it is a primarily dark area, the localized LED TV makes it a dark area, thus causing you to lose the trusses between the lights which are easily visible on the non localized LED TV. Comparing a localized LED TV to a CCFL TV is not a fair comparison, either. They are taking two steps up and marketing it as one step up. Compare a localized LED TV to a standard LED backlit TV. That would be more fair. While this image isn't enough to show the halo effect (it does appear that there is a weird ring around the nose of the plane, but that could be something different going on there) looking at reviews of TVs where they do comparisons often show that the localized LEDs have lower black levels than the plasmas in letterbox bars on movies with bright scenes while the black levels are nearly identical in dark scenes.
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Worf
09/10/09

In reply to Local Dimmed LCD vs Normal LCD
Local dimming should be the first thing disabled when you buy a new TV. It's great for the masses who say "ooh, look 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio!" but honestly, unless it's per-pixel, it means neighbouring pixels get darker and if it's a dark image that's displayed, makes the bright parts dimmer as well.

It's also bad if you use those calibrators - they get horribly messed up because of the dimming.

Local dimming makes blacks blacker, but it does't do a thing about dynamic range. Just dims the bright parts in a dark area. (And maybe that part was dark to HIGHLIGHT the bright parts, and now you've ruined it).
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nutbastard
09/10/09

@Worf:

PER PIXEL???

so it would be ok if there were 2,073,600 sub-millimeter LEDs, but until then it's not worth it?

it seems to me that locally dimming LEDs beat the shit out of non-local LED, since THAT would cause bright areas to darken in dark scenes - not the other way around.

"it means neighbouring pixels get darker"

that's preferable to ALL pixels going dark in dark scenes, is it not?

your sense... it doesn't make.
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Log1c
09/10/09

@Worf: Wait what? "Local dimming makes blacks blacker, but it doesn't do a thing about dynamic range"...

What is your definition of dynamic range?
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bosskev
09/10/09

In reply to Local Dimmed LCD vs Normal LCD
I do NOT think this looks good. In fact, I'd say local dimming looks like crap.

Sure, some of the vast area of black sky looks darker, but look at that same sky as it approaches the scaffolding. Because of "local dimming" only—i.e., not pixel-by-pixel dimming—the dark sky starts to get lighter grey again, creating a completely unnatural, slightly glowing aura around the brighter elements of the scene. This is NOT what the image looked like, this is NOT attractive and this should NOT be considered "an improvement".

Don't be sheep to marketing Newspeak, folks. Reject these kinds of half-assed, inferior solutions.
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Edited by bosskev at 09/10/09 12:04 PM bosskev was starred bosskev was unstarred

Anemovatis
09/10/09

@bosskev: Very true. It's either pixel-by-pixel local dimming or even 4pixels-by-4pixels (to decrease the number of LED's to reduce the cost a bit) or nothing.
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anexanhume
09/10/09

@bosskev: I have viewed the image and looked for the effect you are referring to, but I cannot see it. I have also viewed locally-dimmed LCD sets in persons and have not noticed this effect (or at least, not to an extent where it bothered) and thought that the picture quality was excellent, on par with many plasmas.

I also think you're making some simplistic assumptions about backlighting engines to make them seem unappealing. You appear to suggest that there's no intelligence to the engine, and it simply backlights colored areas and doesn't backlight non-colored areas. The set may very well take into account both the amount of color and its proximity to any dark areas to actually determine how many backlights to use, mitigating any potential "unnatural" look. And guess what, current LCD can suffer from backlight bleed as well, yet they can't achieve these types of blacks.

Finally, I also think it's a simplistic assumption to say this is "unnatural", because the ideal situation to convey this point would be a black area right next to a white one. However, how naturally occuring is that? The only place you really see that (and where reviewers have complained in the past), is where you get white text "blooming" on a black background, as it would in credits. Other than that, those stark contrasts of colors is not natural, and a gradient almost always exists in scenes. So, you're judging it with a standard it's not really subjected to in practice.

As always, any smart consumer should see through the numbers and features to compare the actual quality of the set versus its price. Otherwise, they're just a marketing guy's wet dream.
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Xeno
09/10/09

@bosskev: Agreed until they have a 1:1 dimming option plasma will remain the superior display technology(until OLED that is).
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iamxyj
09/10/09

@bosskev: Sounds like someone can't wait for OLED TVs to become mainstream
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SigmundTheSeaMonster
09/10/09

In reply to Local Dimmed LCD vs Normal LCD
Gimmicks are still gimmicks...
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GastonOgodai
09/10/09

In reply to Local Dimmed LCD vs Normal LCD
See, that's actually the good part about this.
Local dimming will help fix that.
Old LCDs will turn the entire backlight down to match the black in dark scenes.
This causes characters to also appear darker.

Local dimming can keep the characters bright, and the background dark, making them "pop" more, and making the scene clearer.
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okeribok
09/10/09

In reply to Local Dimmed LCD vs Normal LCD
This dies when OLED becomes affordable and durable.
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Mark Wilson
09/10/09

@okeribok: Hahaha. Yes. We've been saying that for a decade. Still waiting.
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TonyWonder
09/10/09

In reply to Local Dimmed LCD vs Normal LCD
if you're trying to compete with plasma shouldn't prices also reflect that competition? Not much of a battle if LED back-lit is shit-loads more than plasma.
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SacGamer
09/10/09

@TonyWonder: Cheap plasmas tend to have lower resolutions than cheap LCD's in all the searching I've done though...

Nobody wants a plasma with lower than 720P resolution...
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Xeno
09/10/09

@SacGamer: I haven't seen a ED in forever. Most cheaper LCD's AND plasma's are 720p.
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ceilingFANBOY
09/10/09

@SacGamer: Localized LED TVs aren't cheap. To get the same quality out of an LCD that you get out of a plasma you have to spend a lot more money. Also, I have seen many 720p TVs look better than many 1080p TVs.

Here is the plasma which CNet has chosen as the new HDTV king:

[www.amazon.com]

46" for under $1,200

Meanwhile, here is the cheapest 46" LED backlit TV that Amazon has:

[www.amazon.com]

The TV is a bit over $1,400 and that was a search for the cheapest TV I could find to fit the criteria. That is not even a localized LED, either.

A "cheap" plasma would be $800 for a 50" 720p such as the one that I got last year. (or $730 for the one posted in today's Dealzmodo) You can't compare that to LCD because they dont' make LCDs that large for that cheap. Nowadays, even the cheapest of plasmas are HD, though.
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Edited by ceilingFANBOY at 09/10/09 3:11 PM ceilingFANBOY was starred ceilingFANBOY was unstarred

jibbly
09/10/09

In reply to Local Dimmed LCD vs Normal LCD
It's like, how much more black could this be? And the answer is none, none more black.
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Alessar
09/10/09

In reply to Local Dimmed LCD vs Normal LCD
I love rich blacks on a TV. I used to keep my CRT TV turned down so much darker than most of my friends; if I was watching a letterboxed movie I wanted black (and not charcoal gray) bands framing it.

My LCD TV is pretty nice but when I replace it eventually, I'll definitely enjoy this new tech.
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.357
06/10/09

In reply to Toshiba's First LED LCD HDTVs: The Regza XV648, ZV650, SV670
LCD LED TVs sound great. Hopefully they won't suck.
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Will Nickelson
06/10/09

In reply to Toshiba's First LED LCD HDTVs: The Regza XV648, ZV650, SV670
I love that "affordable" is apparently between $2300-$3000. If that's the indicator, then I'm not far from begging at the soup kitchen.
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Nick
06/10/09

@Will Nickelson: get the chunky beef noodle. it's delicious.
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strider_mt2k
06/10/09

In reply to Toshiba's First LED LCD HDTVs: The Regza XV648, ZV650, SV670
YOGURT!

I HATE YOGURT! -even with strawberries!
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OMG! Ponies!
06/10/09

In reply to Toshiba's First LED LCD HDTVs: The Regza XV648, ZV650, SV670
Nice to know what's coming down the pike. This pony isn't pulling the trigger on a new HDTV until he's on the West Coast.
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Kaiser-Machead
06/10/09

@OMG! Ponies!: This makes me sad in my heart. You keep in touch now, y'heard?
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m4ximusprim3
06/10/09

@OMG! Ponies!: where out here you going? Just so, you know, I can start to pee on bushes around my house if you get close.
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OMG! Ponies!
06/10/09

@m4ximusprim3: I'm heading west to San Francisco. No date has been set.
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Ike_Skelton
01/07/09

In reply to Toshiba's New Regzas Add 240Hz, LED Backlight On the Top-End SV670 Series
Will 240hz vs 120hz be anything? Or will it just be a marketing buzz word to sell more expensive TVs?
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ripfire
01/07/09

@Ike_Skelton: Later on, it will go up to 480Hz then one of the companies will say that the numbers doesn't mean anything, yet creating their own monicker like 720+ when it's really only 240Hz.
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