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New York, 6:36 PM
Sat Dec 5
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  • posts about #tictactoe more →

    304 Matchboxes Filled With Beans Are The Perfect Tic-Tac-Toe Opponent

    Tic Tac Toe Reinvented, Gets Mirror Upgrade
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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of kaleberg kaleberg
    11/04/09

    In reply to 304 Matchboxes Filled With Beans Are The Perfect Tic-Tac-Toe Opponent
    Donald Michie, the artificial intelligence pioneer, was to first to build a matchbox and bead based game that could learn how to win at tictactoe. Building a simpler version of the game using matchboxes and M&Ms was a popular science fair project. Whenever you beat the machine, you ate all of the M&Ms that drove it to lose which increased the odds that it would win the next time. Eventually, the machine always won and you had to decide if you wanted to play again or just eat ALL the M&Ms.

    For an obituary, see [www.nytimes.com] #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    Sticks Calhoun promoted this comment kaleberg was starred kaleberg was unstarred
    Image of Sticks Calhoun Sticks Calhoun
    11/03/09

    In reply to 304 Matchboxes Filled With Beans Are The Perfect Tic-Tac-Toe Opponent
    Beans, beans, the numerical fruit!
    The more you beat, the more you compute!
    The more you compute, the less you win!
    So leave the beans inside their bins. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    Sticks Calhoun was starred Sticks Calhoun was unstarred
    Image of GitEmSteveDave_HatesFriday GitEmSteveDave_HatesFriday
    11/02/09

    In reply to 304 Matchboxes Filled With Beans Are The Perfect Tic-Tac-Toe Opponent

    Wait, it's not on the list! #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    GitEmSteveDave_HatesFriday was starred GitEmSteveDave_HatesFriday was unstarred
    Image of Scratic Scratic
    11/02/09

    In reply to 304 Matchboxes Filled With Beans Are The Perfect Tic-Tac-Toe Opponent

    It only takes a couple of months to train a chicken to play tic tac toe. (According to former rodeo clown/monkey-pig racer, Bunky Boger) For the time and effort, I'll go with the chicken. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    92BuickLeSabre promoted this comment Scratic was starred Scratic was unstarred
    Image of 89macrunner 89macrunner
    11/02/09

    @Scratic: ill stick to the pursuit of women #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    92BuickLeSabre promoted this comment 89macrunner was starred 89macrunner was unstarred
    Image of 92BuickLeSabre 92BuickLeSabre
    11/02/09

    @89macrunner: Just FYI, it shouldn't need to be a full time job. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    92BuickLeSabre was starred 92BuickLeSabre was unstarred
    Image of 89macrunner 89macrunner
    11/03/09

    @92BuickLeSabre: im a frat guy....so it is sadly #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    89macrunner was starred 89macrunner was unstarred
    Image of 92BuickLeSabre 92BuickLeSabre
    11/03/09

    @89macrunner: well played. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    92BuickLeSabre was starred 92BuickLeSabre was unstarred
    Image of mwhite66 mwhite66
    11/02/09

    In reply to 304 Matchboxes Filled With Beans Are The Perfect Tic-Tac-Toe Opponent
    A human has to act as a zero-knowledge operator, looking in the appropriate box, counting the beans, making the appropriate move, and moving beans from one box to another. It's not meant to be practical, but to illustrate machine learning. This was featured in the March 1962 Scientific American in an article by Martin Gardner, and the idea later figured in a Fred Saberhagen "Berserker" short story. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    92BuickLeSabre promoted this comment mwhite66 was starred mwhite66 was unstarred
    Image of 92BuickLeSabre 92BuickLeSabre
    11/02/09

    @mwhite66: Does that mean that the box plays against itself? Or could you play against the box and get the same result? That's the one part I hadn't quite figured out.
     Reply
    Edited by 92BuickLeSabre at 11/02/09 10:47 PM 92BuickLeSabre was starred 92BuickLeSabre was unstarred
    Image of mwhite66 mwhite66
    11/03/09

    @92BuickLeSabre: The box (and its human operator) play against a human opponent, who you can assume plays perfectly. The box will lose at first but get better with each game it plays. Over time, the box will play its human opponent to a draw nearly every game. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    mwhite66 was starred mwhite66 was unstarred
    Image of mwhite66 mwhite66
    11/03/09

    @92BuickLeSabre: Buy the way, the box operator and the human opponent can be the same person, so long as he doesn't cheat. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    mwhite66 was starred mwhite66 was unstarred
    Image of 92BuickLeSabre 92BuickLeSabre
    11/03/09

    @mwhite66: Okay, that was my sense. Thanks! #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    92BuickLeSabre was starred 92BuickLeSabre was unstarred
    Image of 92BuickLeSabre 92BuickLeSabre
    11/02/09

    In reply to 304 Matchboxes Filled With Beans Are The Perfect Tic-Tac-Toe Opponent
    The idea is nice, but there is a fundamental problem in Bindle's method.

    Corn is not a legume. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    92BuickLeSabre was starred 92BuickLeSabre was unstarred
    Image of tande04 tande04
    11/02/09

    In reply to 304 Matchboxes Filled With Beans Are The Perfect Tic-Tac-Toe Opponent
    Alright, I officially don't get it.

    Where is the "machine"? Even his page doesn't seem to have it. What is it actually doing? What do the beans do?

    Its awesome but the whole thing was way over my head. Even his little asides about writing new novels out of the words of old ones was cool but a bit to meta for my head. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    tande04 was starred tande04 was unstarred
    Image of Rosa Golijan Rosa Golijan
    11/02/09

    @tande04: It's a manual "machine" that leaves you able to play against a continually improving opponent. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    Rosa Golijan was starred Rosa Golijan was unstarred
    Image of sickforska: Sworn defender of the printed word sickforska: Sworn defender of the printed word
    11/02/09

    @tande04: When a "program" which is a selection of moves wins, more beans are added to that program. if it loses, they are taken away. At least that's what I remember. This has been around for a long time, and the last I heard about it was a couple years ago, so I could be totally wrong. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    Rosa Golijan promoted this comment sickforska: Sworn defender of the printed word was starred sickforska: Sworn defender of the printed word was unstarred
    Image of Rosa Golijan Rosa Golijan
    11/02/09

    @sickforska: The basic concept goes back to the 1960s. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    Rosa Golijan was starred Rosa Golijan was unstarred
    Image of 92BuickLeSabre 92BuickLeSabre
    11/02/09

    @tande04: You start with a board, then you pick the "blank board" box. You shake the box and a "bean" falls to the bottom. That bean tells you where to move next. (Hominy, for example, means put a mark in the center square.)

    Then you take your turn, and you select the corresponding box for the new board. (Let's say the X in center and your move was O in top left). Rinse; lather; repeat.

    The learning comes from the fact that when the beans win, you go back and add the "selected" bean for each box. When the beans lose, you subtract those beans from those boxes.

    Over time the winning beans will be more consistently selected for and the losing beans eliminated.
     Reply
    Edited by 92BuickLeSabre at 11/02/09 10:39 PM 92BuickLeSabre was starred 92BuickLeSabre was unstarred
    Image of tande04 tande04
    11/02/09

    @sickforska: So its not really a "machine" its just a sorting box of beans you have to reference?

    Still don't get it. Is it like his little street sweeper example. Using a "machine" to do overly complex things that could be done much simpler? #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    tande04 was starred tande04 was unstarred
    Image of tande04 tande04
    11/02/09

    @92BuickLeSabre: Oooooh.

    I get it.

    Kinda. So thats why the different beans? So they'll fall through different holes? #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    tande04 was starred tande04 was unstarred
    Image of 92BuickLeSabre 92BuickLeSabre
    11/02/09

    @tande04: I think the beans are just different to identify the location of the X, as in the picture up top, and you go with the first one that falls down into the little nook at the bottom of the box.

    You could presumably use 9 different colors instead. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    92BuickLeSabre was starred 92BuickLeSabre was unstarred
    Image of tande04 tande04
    11/02/09

    @92BuickLeSabre: Oooooh.

    Thank you. My brain is taxed enough as it is right now. I needed to think this out as much as I need to think out the standards for removal of a diversity suit. Shit, actually I really need to do that and not keep posting on giz.

    Why did you have to start a notification bar giz? Now I have an added reason not to get shit done.
     Reply
    Edited by tande04 at 11/02/09 10:47 PM tande04 was starred tande04 was unstarred
    Image of 92BuickLeSabre 92BuickLeSabre
    11/02/09

    @tande04: Ah, diversity jurisdiction isn't that bad.

    (1) Corps have dual jurisdiction
    (2) $75K case in controversy
    (3) Diversity must exist between all parties.
    (4) Determined at time of filing.

    Ta-da. All good now. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    92BuickLeSabre was starred 92BuickLeSabre was unstarred
    Image of tande04 tande04
    11/02/09

    @92BuickLeSabre: Ha.

    Yeah but its a memo and the professor specifically made all of the stuff a bit different to make it a bit more difficult (for example no PPB per se since its just a holding company without physical "business" and its an injunction suit so the AIC is different than usual) its really just a matter of writing it though and that sucks.

    BTW you would of gotten a double <3 for that if they had such a thing.
     Reply
    Edited by tande04 at 11/02/09 10:57 PM tande04 was starred tande04 was unstarred
    Image of 92BuickLeSabre 92BuickLeSabre
    11/02/09

    @tande04: Bummer. I prefer legal questions that can be solved with pithy numbering. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    92BuickLeSabre was starred 92BuickLeSabre was unstarred
    Image of tande04 tande04
    11/02/09

    @92BuickLeSabre: Maybe I should just build a box with a bunch of beans in it and turn that in.

    "If AIC is $75,000 drop one black bean in this box".
     Reply
    Edited by tande04 at 11/02/09 11:07 PM tande04 was starred tande04 was unstarred
    Image of 92BuickLeSabre 92BuickLeSabre
    11/02/09

    @tande04: "This box represents P. This box represents the D; it doesn't have a top because it's just a holding company. (Hey-oh!) The number of beans represent the cost of injunctive relief." #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    92BuickLeSabre was starred 92BuickLeSabre was unstarred
    Image of TreFacTor TreFacTor
    11/02/09

    In reply to 304 Matchboxes Filled With Beans Are The Perfect Tic-Tac-Toe Opponent
    Reading this article made me feel.... ummm what's the word I'm looking for...??? DUMB! #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    tande04 promoted this comment TreFacTor was starred TreFacTor was unstarred
    Image of jagidrok jagidrok
    11/02/09

    In reply to 304 Matchboxes Filled With Beans Are The Perfect Tic-Tac-Toe Opponent
    Tic Tac Toe is such a simple game to solve already. Even the 304 solutions aren't really that complicated. With a few rules, someone can become unbeatable (win or draw, that is) #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    Rosa Golijan promoted this comment jagidrok was starred jagidrok was unstarred
    Image of 92BuickLeSabre 92BuickLeSabre
    11/02/09

    @jagidrok: But the key here is that so can a bunch of boxes of beans. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    92BuickLeSabre was starred 92BuickLeSabre was unstarred
    Image of dimadelux dimadelux
    11/02/09

    In reply to 304 Matchboxes Filled With Beans Are The Perfect Tic-Tac-Toe Opponent
    what the fuck #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    Duckspwn:Loves Approving Reds promoted this comment dimadelux was starred dimadelux was unstarred
    Image of Duckspwn Duckspwn
    11/02/09

    @dimadelux: That just about sums it up. #mechanicaltictactoe
     Reply
    Duckspwn was starred Duckspwn was unstarred
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