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11/19/09
11/19/09
At least you put up the update, so there's that, but the damage was already done.
11/19/09
"[...] hindered his son's social development by keeping focus away from a real language? I'm all for teaching foreign languages early on, but lets make it ones that are spoken on this planet, please."
Then people teaching their children Latin should be burned at the stake. Obviously Latin has a history on this planet, but I would imagine that more people speak fluent Klingon these days than know 10 words in Latin. In 50, 100, 200 years that number will increase even more.
Even better, how about ASL? That's not the mother's native tongue but she dared to teach him a non-spoken language? Blasphemy!
This. of course. is just taking your harsh criticisms of this man literally and trying to point out how ridiculous your accusations are of ruining the kids life. If the child ends up living in a cave and welding a Klingon forehead to his own, and speaks only that language for the rest of his days (or more realistically his language and social abilities don't develop as as other children his age) then you can begin judging people for how they raise their kids doing something as silly as this.
11/19/09
11/19/09
This includes, japenese, forms of chinese ( mandarin and cantonese), German, Hebrew, among many others. English is a melting pot language. It has no single root.
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11/19/09
It is if X when Y then Z.
If I teach a kid Klingon but he has no outside reinforcement of he is going to go with English because he gets more reinforcement in using it then I drop teaching him Klingon.
You can trade out X with anything and the rule still applies. It could be Latin, it could even be an "living" language like Spanish, French, etc. If the kid isn't getting the reinforcement from using it during those developing years he is still going to drop it. The kid would still be 15 years old and not know a drop of Latin, Spanish, French ect.
11/19/09
He did nothing wrong and some of you have said some pretty awful things without even knowing the child or the man or the whole situation.
It is quite clear he wasn't just speaking Klingon, and that the kid was exposed to English just as much, and that the majority of linguists agree that exposure to more languages makes for a healthier brain, not a hindered one. Yes Klingon is not a language that developed "naturally", but it is still a language and is not going to cause some kind of lasting harm and in all likelihood will actually make the kid better at picking up languages.
I bet a lot of you would be eating your words if you actually met the man and his child and saw them interact. A little ashamed here at some of the reactions I'm seeing.
11/19/09
It also speaks to taking the time to read the linking articles since one of them had the whole story (although it was another link click away) and the other comments in the thread.
Slightly on a different subject slightly on the same but after I watched Trekkies 2 I also stopped with all of the "guy is going to die a virgin" comments. For one thing I might not be that much of an uber geek about one thing but I'm that much of a super geek on other stuff that there isn't that much difference.
Plus Kroener ended up better off then me. He may have been walking around his High School in a Star Trek outfit in the first movie but by the second one he was married with a great job that he loves. Better then I can say for myself.
11/19/09
I refuse to comment on something I have not fully read to avoid sounding like an idiot. I have never been on the receiving end of a "RTFA" I am proud to say.
11/19/09
I find it hilarious how many times you get a old product shot for the article since there are no pictures of the rumored one and people come back with "looks like the old one".
11/19/09
First off this all happened about 15 years ago.
Speers wanted to see if the child would pick up a constructed language just like he would a traditional language. He had already learned Klingon himself because he saw it as a challenge and he choose to teach the kid Klingon because it had a culture (albeit also constructed) behind it as opposed to Esperanto which was a larger more complete constructed language. He also said that Klingon still represented a challenge to him because he'd have to think about how to say certain things that might not have a direct translation.
The idea was that a second language would still benefit the child later in life and it didn't really matter what the language was when he was a kid. The Mom supported it as did all his friends and family.
The child was exposed to plenty of English. The mom spoke only English and the kid got plenty of it at day care.
[www.washingtoncitypaper.com]
At two the kid was speaking Klingon and English (well like kids that are 2 speak). Dad was just Vavoy. Some of the ages are kinda hard to piece together but it sounds like by 3 the kid had moved completely to English (which the dad knew was inevitable since he was exposed to English much more) and so dad did too.
[www.wired.com]
At 15 the kid has none of the "ill effects" so many of you predicted. For all intents and purposes he seems as well adjusted as any other kid (as Speers put it in one posting update "the kid isn't a hall monitor"). He doesn't know a lick of Klingon but he is multilingual in other languages that his parents taught him.
Edit: It obviously took me too long to write that since Rosa got in an update in the time. :p
Good to see her add some more to the story since like I said the real one is much better than the shot in the dark one.
11/19/09
Why, oh, why, can't everyone else read the articles, instead of commenting from the hip with their black-and-white judgment about something they are completely ignorant of?
11/19/09
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#tips
11/19/09
You're right the kid didn't know if it was constructed or natural and that was the point. He gave the kid all of the benefit of early exposure to a second language and did it in a way that also challenged himself as a linguist.
11/19/09
"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra."
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[klingonska.org]
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the first years are the most important ones for learning.
11/19/09
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11/19/09
@Sunburn_summer: 100% not what happened and not true.
@DemanRisu: Also false.
@benci007: And another nope.
@Et Al.: I just realized how many more posts in the thread now so I won't say go back and read them I'll give you the cliffnotes version.
Guys a linguist.
It was only him speaking Klingon to the kid. Everything else was English.
He dropped the Klingon thing when the kid basically stopped responding to it and didn't seem to enjoy it.
Kid is 15 doesn't remember any Klingon and is in no way social stunted.
Lets face it the only reason any of you have a problem with this is that its Klingon. If it had been French everyone would be singing the guys praise but had it played out the same the same thing would have happened.
The kid would of started ignoring the French at 3 and speaking exclusively English because that is what he was getting reinforced more in.
The dad and every other linguist that was talked to or mentioned in any of the articles said its going to have no effect other than positives. Having him learn a different language at that age "was like x-training for the Olympics" as one put it. It doesn't matter that it Klingon, Russian, Japanese or if the kid remembers that language in the end. It helped develop the brain to realize early on that things can be more than one thing, which is why adults have so much trouble learning foreign language.
11/19/09
11/19/09
The fact that this kid learned English at the same time only makes this case a little bit better. And I only mean fractionally. This loser used his kid as an experiment. This is right up there with losers who give their kid some far out character name from some sci-fi show without considering how it messes with the way his peers will react.
When we have kids it's time for us to put on our big boy pants and be the adult.
In one respect you're absolutely right. I have a big problem with this because it was Klingon. It's not like the Dad was actually Klingon. He wasn't trying to bestow his mother-tongue on his kid so he could retain part of the Klingon Culture... If the mom was english and the dad was french... by all means, help the kid become bilingual so that He can have the ability to interact with either culture. This language "skill" wasn't going to help his kid interact with Grandma and Grampa sand hear stories about Qo'noS.
This is abusive becuase it was an expiriment. He was using his kid as a Guinea-pig. I stand by my original notion that this guy needs his kid removed and preferably his means for making kids too.
#tips
11/19/09
Like I said even if it was French and everything else was the same none of the things you mention would have happened. He wouldn't have been listing to Grandma or Grandpa's stories because he wouldn't have retained it anymore than the Klingon when he was constantly exposed to English. As it is he did help the kid be bilingual. It just so happens that the first on was Klingon.
Even your first sarcastic comment is wrong. It didn't help him but it didn't hinder him. Again how many French speaking 2 year olds was he going to run into even if it had been a "real language" he was taught. He interacted with the other kids just fine.
He isn't a loser he is an intelligent and capable person who raised his kid correctly in every way (even with the Klingon). The fact that you still thing otherwise only demonstrates that you're not taking in the whole story now that you have it and are still relying on your own snap and incorrect judgments.
11/19/09
Maybe you live in an isolated part of the US or something. I live in a very multicultural part of the world where kids could actually use a second language. That been said. Say the "experiment" was to teach the kid a second language and that language was say, french (a very largely spoken international language) this kid may actually get some use out of it. And in a home where this language is being learned it's likely that that 2nd language is more than likely part of one of the parents culture and very possible there are other family members who also speak the language. There is actual benefit to it. Using your kid to test out your theories seems abusive.
By the way... just because I have now read the whole article and have all the "facts" doesn't mean I now suddenly agree with it. This guy used his kid for his own selfish means. That's terrible parenting... and again... if you see that as ok... I really hope you don't have kids.
#tips
11/19/09
If the facts were the same it doesn't matter if it was French, Spanish, or Esperanto. He would have stopped using it when he wasn't exposed to it. If he wasn't exposed to it he wouldn't have continued using it no matter how prevalent it is in the world.
It was just fine parenting. If you don't agree with it thats fine. Doesn't make you any less wrong though and people that can see the logic in all of it and appreciate it for what it really was aren't any less capable of rearing children.
11/19/09
#tips
11/19/09
This isn't a subjective discussion that you're trying to turn it into. I understand you think Klingon is worthless. I understand that you think a real language would be better. What you're failing to grasp time and time again is that I'm looking at it from an objective logical stand point.
If x when y then z.
You can change out the x for anything else in the world that you want and its not going to change one lick of the child's development. It doesn't matter on the fact pattern because none of the other factors change. You're adding variables I'm sticking with the same fact pattern. I'm saying that if you put water in the freezer it turns to ice and it doesn't matter if the water is blue, green or red. You're saying put water in the freezer then put it in the stove its coming out ice and I'm stupid for not seeing it. I know why its not ice. You don't seem to understand the difference.
One last time it doesn't matter what the language is. It is useless regardless if it isn't continued to being used. If he spoke French to the kid then dropped it (like he did with the Klingon) the kid still wouldn't know French. It doesn't matter how much of the rest of the world speaks it if he wasn't getting it during those formative years. Period.
Again, thank you for your concern. My children will be fine. The will know to think things out before they speak and make judgments based on fact and not suspicion or snap judgments. They will be smart enough to look at a picture on a blog and not automatically form an opinion on the subject until they look at the whole story. Your kids on the other hand better never ask you for help on the LSAT.
11/19/09
#tips
11/19/09
Perhaps one day I will tell him that his mother and I never actually consummated our marriage and that she was inseminated by way of a turkey baster with my man juice."
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11/19/09
Then again, if you have to give up being yourself just to have sex with a woman...that's not a sacrifice worth making. If women are that shallow (and I know that a lot of them are, just like a lot of men are) that eternal virginal damnation is your fate for enjoying science and/or science fiction, would they be worth the effort?
11/19/09
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11/19/09
The kid will have great stories to tell, and this might really help him.
Not shure about this, but I think I read somewhere that if a kid learns a couple of languages during the first x years, it doesn't matter if it's a language spoken on this planet or not, this will greatly improve the learning ability of new languages in the future.
It has to do with training your brain not to attach the significance of stuff to a word, but to an abstract concept that can be shaped afterwards, thus making it easier to attach that significance to other words/languages.
It's a different process from learning a foreign language when you are older, because then you'll do it by translating to your native language, which takes far more time to become a natural thing.
And if the guy wasn't that much of a Star Wars fan and did learn Klingon only to teach his son, I have to say he must be a very dedicated parent.
There are too many kids out there in dire need of a parent as dedicated as this guy...
11/19/09
And the guy is a huge Star Wars fan. Just not much of a Star Trek fan :p
11/19/09
11/19/09
They can wear matching shirts on their next camping trip. I recommend this one.
11/19/09
11/19/09