Not me, I stay away from personal attacks and name calling

MINI Driver

I do admit this. I also admit that the analysts of the money section aren't any more qualified to "predict" things than I am. In fact (if you invested in Apple you should remember) that in the recent years when Apple went from $40's a share to $170's...the analysts were fully panning it's growth. They were saying how Apple in no way is worth that and it's been overvalued by blind investing.

Again...I am not telling anybody what to think. I am debunking your misled information. Which is based all on opinion and no fact. If you actually read my comments fully before commenting, you would see this.

Now your arguement is the Zune/iPod? What happened to you proving that Apple was going to overtake Microsoft in a few years? If you're going to argue a point, stick to it. Then provide some concrete data to support it. If you provided factual numbers about Apple cathing up to Microsoft's server and commercial business, search engine, investments, and worldwide government contracts (which is why Microsoft is making so much money, the Zune is just another toy for them)...then and ONLY then will you be able to "win" this debate.

PS- This is how I make a (very good) living, your arguements reek of a desperate attempt to prove me wrong and say, "nah nah boo boo...stick your head in doo doo".

PynkFloydd

Interesting that completely avoid the information from Fortune / CNN that goes against your POV - I see a pattern developing.

And as you freely admit - you're no more qualified than anyone to debunk the 10 Layers article.

You're certainly not qualified to tell any of us what to think - or define for us what a 'win' may be.

Come back and make another argument if Zune sustains an iPod beating sales position for the next 12 months - you might have some data to back your side of the story.

MINI Driver

Believe it or not, the market is more of an art than a science. Even though I do not have any college education, I have a few friends that attend top business schools. Even Columbia NY will admit that NO person in the whole world can predict what trend will be popular in 10 years or what financial direction a business will follow. If the analysts were always right, they'd be trillionaires right now from predicting Microsoft and Google and everything else that ever worked.

...in the title of the article that you cite, it specifically says it's a "subjective" article. Psst, that means someone's opinion. Again, you quote an article that is based fully on bias and no tangible facts. You must believe a LOT of marketing. ...and yes, I have a friend or two in the marketing world. Their goal is "hearts and minds". Instill an emotion to provide a need for the product (fear, happiness, etc.) and appeal to some sense of logic (ex. this car goes 0-60 in 4.3 seconds). You're proof that Apple's marketing team deserves a raise.

PS- you can't "win" this debate. You're using "sports theme logic". You feel your team is #1 and refuse to use facts to support it.

PynkFloydd

You're right - I didn't finish reading your diatribe

Love the way you dismiss independent market analysis that doesn't agree with your POV - LMAO

Your comments about Steve Jobs seem odd when compared to today's Fortune announcement

[money.cnn.com]

Seems that Fortune believe that Steve Jobs is top of the '25 most powerful people in business' list.

I'll assume that Fortune are biased, and that the article does not contain any credible sources...

Bill makes it in at #7, but is beaten by the Google boys at #4 - who'd have thought.

MINI Driver

But again, this only tells me that, on that particular day, Zune was the cheaper player, not necessarily the better one.

macserv

I heard Steve Jobs stopped crying a little after they dismissed the stock fraud case against him. ...then he heard that the Zune was actually doing pretty well and he started right back up again. Last I heard, he was doing some "retail therapy" and buying a cargo ship full of mock turlenecks and prying buttons off of every gadget he could find. Poor, poor Steve.

PynkFloydd

Your article is biased and does not contain any credible sources. That'd be like saying that the chain letter I received in my email caused me to have bad luck...cause it said so.

"Microsoft Reports 27% Revenue Growth; Fastest First Quarter Since 1999", is the latest Microsoft headline.

[www.microsoft.com]

You either did not finish reading my previous statement and/or didn't understand it. I actually said that the higher potential return would come from Apple. Basically (in 3rd grade terms), I said that Microsoft has 1000, $1 bills and Apple has 5, $20 bills. I am actually saying that I believe MSFT has poor investment potential because it is so watered down. For example, I'd rather own one of the $20's than one of the $1's...but MSFT is still worth more. No where did I state that I am invested in MSFT. I actually prefer IPO's with a high potential for growth. VM Ware tripled in the first month. I also prefer trading to investing. ...that's what I do for a living.

Also, I personally built my brushed aluminum PC and installed Visa Ultimate and then overclocked it to 3.7ghz (dual core)...I have NEVER had problems with it. Not one lockup, not one system error (after I stabilized my overclock). Actually, the only thing that doesn't work on my 64-bit Vista is iTunes.

I only have a high school diploma and I understand basic market/economy princicples. I hope I have enlightened you a little to provide success in the market or stop blindly supporting a company based on personal beliefs. When Warren Buffet is interviewed, he always mentions that the most successful investors have NO emotion with their investments. When I first saw growth potential with Apple, I jumped on them. The stock would go up 10% every time Jobs would speak. That stopped and I ditched them a while back for more lucrative investments...

PynkFloydd

Worf

Thanks Pink - of course all of this points to the fact that Apple is a dynamic company, growing it's market, revenue, and market cap outside of the traditional desktop/laptop space - as MS are now trying to emulate.

When you look at the progress that Apple is making, and compare with MS (As was done in this article, before even the iPhone was launched) It's now reasonable to expect that Apple's market cap will exceed MS by as early as 2010.

[10layers.com]

You'll no doubt remember that Apple also passed Dell in market cap last month...

Now obviously I'm just some dumb MINI driver, but I'll take this sort of growth as being very good news for my Apple stock holdings.

Disclaimer: Stock may go up as well as down - Windows may BSOC on you at any time - I can't be responsible for your dull grey plastic computer failing to run Vista - XP may or may not be available next year.

MINI Driver

Reading these posts, I don't think the point has been to compare the superiority of iPod-esque products based on market share. What people have said, though, is that it's silly to compare sales rates for a product as compiled over three years to the sales rates of a product over a shorter time frame and then to suggest it says anything at all about market share.

But most importantly, unlike the situation between OSX and windows, when the Zune came out years after the iPod, the Zune was touted, by your ilk, as the "iPod killer." Don't blame us for talking about market share *as an indicator of whether or not the Zune IS an iPod killer* by trying to recast the point in your own terms.

You guys are the ones who get hardons over market share; that's why you clamor about 'iPod killers'; and when you don't do any iPod killing, don't blame us pointing out that even YOUR market share logic doesn't hold in this case."

As applies here... there's a saying in the motorcycle sales business when it comes to ugly bikes: "There's an ass for every seat." There's also a saying in this wired.com article: "But before Gates, Allard, and Co. start planning a party, it must be noted that Amazon and other individual company stores (such as Apple's) are not part of these numbers." It'll be fun to see, for all involved.

cvalue13

DJJS

My point is, you're proposing Apple can catch up to Microsoft's net worth based on one product (that they've still only got about, what...5-8% market share?)...that's never going to happen. Apple would have to pull a Google. ...and you'd have to convince every corporation, government facility, and household to buy a MORE expensive computer with limited upgradability and software compability and dump their current setups. Oh! ...and you'd have to reteach all PC gaming companies to code for the Mac.

Now, if you're talking about making money in the market...yes, I would put my money on Apple based solely on the volatility. While this is Microsoft's latest headline for their past quarter, "Broad-based strength drives operating income and EPS growth each in excess of 25%"...this is so diluted amongst the shares outstanding that it's not a great investment (for me).

PynkFloydd

Paradise

@PynkFloydd: correct — minus the part about steve jobs crying at night.

@SidV: potential growth is infinite. find a new market to jump into.

Paradise

copyguy

Wrong way to look at it. Microsoft is deeply in the enterprise, Apple is purely a consumer company. Sure there are some Mac products in the enterprise, but it's not a serious effort.

SQL Server, Exchange, System Center are all billion dollar businesses for MSFT. The product portfolio is actually pretty complex and diverse, but they get painted with a broad brush by web commenters who just want to boil everything down to "good guy" "bad guy" simpleminded fanboy arguments. Microsofts growth potential and investment areas are both horizontal and vertical.

Assume youre correct though. Based purely on your logic and argument though, AAPL would be in just as much trouble anyway. Their business is built almost entirely on an MP3 player and they have a huge percentage of that market. They have shown little ability to penetrate the desktop market. Conversly, MSFT has had very limited success in the MP3 market but has nearly all of the desktop market. So purely in your mind (even though I think your way of looking at it is flawed as described above), how do you see Apple having an "advantage"?

mlambert890

SidV

manguero

Oz

PynkFloydd

Now if Apple were to fail with its iPod...

diabolusunknown

diabolusunknown

The Zune doesn't have to "beat" the iPod anytime soon to be a "winner" on its own. It's a great device with pretty good (if functionally minimal) software.

typoink

xxenclavexx

MS stock is the black line that's been pretty much flat throughout...

Here: [www.swivel.com]

Let's hope that those Black Friday sales result in that black line heading upwards instead of flatlining...

MINI Driver

Only another 109,000,000 to go to catch up - should be done by New Year eh?

If MS adopt my suggestion of giving Zunes away 'free' with common household items, such as packets of Cornflakes, I think they'll hit that number with no problem...

The Brown Zune give away is a great start - let's see pink shiny Zunes free with every Barbie Doll at Toys R Us!

MINI Driver

AlphaUltima

txturbo930

deadhouseplants

I think anything less than $150 for a Zune 30 is an amazing steal! Wireless syncing and subscription all you can eat service for the win! 2 things you can't get with an Ipod.

deitiphobia

'prior version'?

"Zune fatties" include the newer 80 gig version too. And it's not like Microsoft discontinued the Zune 30, they are merely keeping it around as cheaper option for those not needing 80 gigs of space or those who don't have enough cash. With the new firmware ported to the Zune 30, it's essentially a new player with new features.

Archdukey

snitch29

bandit

You can also Parallels Windows and use the Zune software as if it were native mac; and all you have to do is "steal" a copy of XP (since im sure all you Mac users went and bought an XP copy, right).

Also, to give the fanboys some ammo, it was the last gen zune that took tops, not the current. Probably because they are on backorder everywhere. Glad i preordered my 80 gig.

diabolusunknown

arzkkr

arzkkr

I'm looking at the MP3 Players Bestseller list right now ([amazon.com]) and for some reason the purple iPod shuffle is number 4. Maybe these numbers are a little off...

Lloyd

lianna_g

Have a great day.

bitfactory

Crazysamz

I was about to ask the same...

It is oddly quiet!

Wegmans

marm0lade

rainfever

ysirotin