Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes? - Gizmodo Comments

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

Worf — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:24:26 EST

DRM isn't dead, and anyone who think sthe music labels have willingly gone DRM-free is deluding themselves.

They had some hard choices:
1) Bend over and take Apple's "disgusting" contracts for iTunes
2) Whip music store with their terms, but lose iPod

Neither option appeals to them.

With Amazon opening a new music store, they had a new option:
3) Accept DRM-Free as the way to go, since Amazon is the only company big enough to take on Apple, and keep iPod.

Basically, Apple, being the #3 music seller, has gotten too powerful for the label's comfort with the "if you want iPod, here's a contract that you guys dislike". (How long have we heard stuff like "Apple disallows flexible pricing" and such?).

What they plan to do is weaken the iTunes Store's influence, so they can now go to Apple and Amazon with "OK, implement flexible pricing, or you lose 90% of your music".

The labels are scared of Apple and its iTunes Store. So scared, they're dropping DRM so Amazon can compete and lessen the influence of iTunes.

(Ain't competition grand?).

The ulterior motive though, is to drop Amazon as fast as possible once Apple bends over and takes the beating, and then go back to the DRM we all know and love. They've not seen the light (OK, maybe EMI has), they just don't want a third party (Apple) to hold the power than they once had.

So buy, buy, buy right now while it's good, because it's only going to get worse once Amazon gains marketshare. Then labels will just shop for either Amazon or Apple to offer more favorable terms for it.

Worf

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

Xenocide — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:52:53 EST

Wouldn't you just have to re encode the file to some other format to get around this?

Xenocide

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

draconis2941 — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:30:27 EST

@skierpage: I think technology has improved a little bit since 2000. It may have been not reasonable to implant inaudible data on an MP3 then, but now is a different story.

@Hello_Newman:
I'll start the clock for the first watermark editor that will be marketed as "protecting your privacy" and used for "stealing a ton crap"

draconis2941

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

crash — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:22:40 EST

Watermarking will be easy enough for the pirates to strip, so it's not going to catch anyone who really wants to steal. I suppose a few innocent people might get sued if their tracks end up on p2p, but I don't think they'd lose (unless they admit they shared it). All you would need to say is that your mp3 player got stolen at some point, and the thief must have shared the files. It's really no different than if the RIAA could trace tracks back to the cd's stolen out of my car last summer.

Of course, if the RIAA can show you were sharing the files, and can then use the watermark to show how widespread the file became, I'm sure the RIAA will be happy to use it in court to claim even larger damages against you.

crash

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

ceo_phonethics — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:16:15 EST

As content creators with a focus on new and emerging media, we understand the challenges surrounding the monetization ability of digital content. In this light the debate around protecting content from 'unauthorised' downloads / usage has intrigued me right from the beginning both as a consumer as well as a creator. While iTunes and more recently even sections of Bollywood have been able to sell DRM protected content and reaped moderate benefits, introducing the idea of 'paid' digital media to consumers, DRM implementation is still hobbled by lack of universal standards, high costs and overstated efficacy. As a Short Form Content developer in India, we have evaluated DRM specifically in our context (SFC) as opposed to the holy grail of digital content. And we believe, A new medium needs a new idiom. The success of the quirky creative endeavors has been fuelled by a viral internet platform. The content creators allow (via their web sites / channels] users to carry (embed) their work and share it with the rest of the cyber world without paying a penny.

This massive traffic and organized distribution has created new markets and made it easier to access the old ones. For some amateurs there may not be much after a short spate of viewership but a serialized, well marketed amateur video can evolve into a brand (lonelygirl15). I strongly feel Internet is a beautiful medium to help content travel to various markets and demographics. Instead of locking it down be prepared to re-purpose / re-orient your product to any distribution channels such as Mobile or even Print.

(comments posted by: saurabh@phonethics.in)

ceo_phonethics

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

Accelerata — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:06:18 EST

My prediction: Digital watermarking will become somewhat widespread. It will be easily defeated and version two (or three if you count the existing systems) will come about. Eventually the companies using it will realize its not accomplishing the goals its supposed to and will stop investing in the tech version of the cold war. I only dislike watermarking because of the susceptibility it has to being turned back into DRM minus the encryption (a la the network content filtering proposed by AT&T). In any case, 10 years from now, no one will talk about watermarking unless its in a historical context.

Accelerata

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

asabru88 — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:16:26 EST

If I understand this, it's just on downloaded content. So, here's how you would get around the watermark, get the CD, don't get it from iTunes or something like that. The problem with purchased downloads is that it's usually at a lower quality, and, if you hate this like me, you can't choose the format you want. Anyway, I would also think that compressing or converting a file would mess up the qatermark, and it wouldn't take someone much time to figure out how to get around it, like with conventional DRM.

asabru88

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

Hello_Newman — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:13:39 EST

Yeah this is passive, and will keep some casual downloaders from putting their purchased files up in torrents, but someone will break it, probably the same day it's used for the first time.

I wonder who keeps talking the music labels into this stuff? If someone can write it, someone else is smart enough to break it. It's been demonstrated so many times how can they not have accepted it by now?

There will probably be a free watermark editor out to change all your files, I just wonder who's name is going to be the most popular to change it to? Probably either a porn star or politician...

Hello_Newman

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

skierpage — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:00:42 EST

Digital watermarking was big around 2000, the Secure Digital Music Initiative promoted it. But Stanford's Professor Felten proved it was either audible or easily defeated or both, and SDMI died. What has changed?

If the watermarking makes the slightest audible difference, that would really suck.

I hope someone will provide diff patches or a utility to un-watermark your audio files.

skierpage

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

stratboy — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:30:14 EST

@SalParadise: I think the average pre-crack lifespan of anti-pirate measures is about 20 minutes.

stratboy

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

IphtashuFitz — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:23:38 EST

Maybe its just me but I would think that watermarking would be relatively easy to defeat. If a decent programmer gets a hold of multiple copies of a given song then they could do a comparison to see how the watermarking is done then write a utility to strip it out. An even simpler approach would be to simply convert the file from one format to another. I would expect that any watermarking would be distorted or simply lost in the conversion process.

IphtashuFitz

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

IphtashuFitz — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:20:31 EST

@neutrino15: OK, here's a scenario for you: You buy some watermarked music for your iPod. You loan your iPod to a friend. (or leave it on your desk at work where a coworker finds it, or a roommate borrows it when you're not around) Whoever it is that borrows it, whether you knew it or not, copies one or more of those songs from your iPod to their mp3 player. It eventually ends up on a P2P network where the RIAA discovers it. They trace it back to you because of the watermark and sue you because they can prove that the watermark is unique to the copy of the song they sold you. How do you defend yourself against such a lawsuit?

Watermarking, in theory, seems like a good idea. But if they try to use it for something like tracking individual users (as I'm sure the RIAA would love to do) then it will certainly lead to situations like this.

IphtashuFitz

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

RainyDayInterns — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:08:36 EST

The perfect watermark with be to use the purchaser's credit card number...most would not want that circulating on a file sharing site :-)

If the buyer does not hand out the files...no problem.

RainyDayInterns

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

EnochLight — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:43:32 EST

@neutrino15: "I dont understand why this is a bad thing. I mean, the only people this could impede would be real pirates who steal music. Watermarking would still allow rightful purchasers to use their music however they please, as long as they don't distribute it on a large scale (piracy!) Isn't this an extremely fair deal??"

Yes actually, it is an extremely fair deal and one I completely support. If I am allowed to play my music on any device that supports it, then I have no problem with my purchased music having a digital signature stamped to it. I'm the only one that plays it so what do I care?

In fact, the DRM-free stuff that Apple sells via the iTMS already has a watermark on it in the form of my email address. I could care less - I can play it on my iPod, as many computers on my network as I like, my Squeezebox, my Xbox 360 - this is how music distribution is *SUPPOSED* to work.

EnochLight

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

Xerloq — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:37:05 EST

I love how these marketing terms are being tossed around to make everyone feel good about the content they've purchased/stolen. Watermarking is simply a different method of DRM. Nothing has changed except for who holds the proverbial keys.

Xerloq

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

neutrino15 — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:23:04 EST

I dont understand why this is a bad thing. I mean, the only people this could impede would be real pirates who steal music. Watermarking would still allow rightful purchasers to use their music however they please, as long as they don't distribute it on a large scale (piracy!) Isn't this an extremely fair deal??

neutrino15

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

chadmd23 — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:34:49 EST

@scarbrtj: You don't think someone will be able to erase the watermark? There will always be someone who will be trying to remove drm/watermarking.

chadmd23

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

someToast — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:34:41 EST

Here's an idea: Don't put your purchased music on P2P networks, ya knuckleknob!

someToast

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

zair — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:33:55 EST

@ghmlco: Actually I think the reason behind file sharing is that we had the ability to easily share/steal stuff and it was free.

zair

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

SalParadise — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:22:22 EST

Watermarking is an interesting idea. Here's another one: I wonder how long it will take someone to write an plug in for Audacity that takes two or three copies of the same file and averages them together, smearing the watermarks?

SalParadise

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

scarbrtj — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:17:08 EST

Content filtering is not the only potential gotcha. Watermarking should also empower PCs to prohibit the playback of a ripped CD, DVD, or Blu-ray. And there'll be no easy way to make a FairPlay4WM-like app for watermarking.

scarbrtj

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

DrXym — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:16:28 EST

I see nothing wrong with watermarking content. It's passive, and assuming you don't share your files around (i.e. limit yourself to fair use), you can play your content in any way you feel like.

DrXym

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

smitty1123 — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:14:42 EST

Ya see, I've got a system:
Plug in ethernet cable, leech, unplug cable, repeat.

smitty1123

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

ghmlco — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:08:46 EST

DRM was the major "reason" behind file sharing. Can't use it here, can't use it there, can't play it on Linux, etc.

Now that most of the labels have dropped it, AND gone to higher quality bit rates, AND in some cases reduced per-track pricing even futher, it will be interesting to see if people will now put their money where their mouth was, or just find another rationalization (like watermarking) to avoid paying for the music they use and enjoy.

ghmlco

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

RainyDayInterns — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:53:10 EST

Tracking seems fair. It would be interesting to see how it moves InTheWild.

RainyDayInterns

Will Digital Watermarking Rise From DRM's Ashes?

LoopTrack — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:49:37 EST

This is not strictly watermarking for digital downloads. Many of the labels are putting watermarks on the batches of cd's sent through duplication. That way they can track the torrent (or shared files) to see which distributor it came from. It sounds like a big experiment to watch how files "evolve" on the internet. We'll have to wait and see what they do with this watermark data being collected...

LoopTrack