Also, as pointed out by others, the relative scale is immense. At geo-stationary orbit — the most populated orbit of all, at a radius of 42,164 km — the space available is over 43 times that on the Earth's surface (radius of 6,378.1 km).
[surface area of a sphere of radius 'r' = 4πr²]

So there are two contributing factors. This stuff is incredibly spaced out: ~6,000 satellites ÷ 43 Earths = ~140 satellites per Earth. Then, assuming they actually manage to run into each other, their relative velocity will be marginal — tens of kph, not thousands, as is implied by the article.

A shuttle/moon-rocket pilot shoulodn't have any trouble avoiding a lumbering satellite moving at that speed. And if it's too small for radar to detect, it's much less likely to do any damage. Also, manned moon rockets could take a path above or below the "junk belt" if they're so worried about it. Costs (only a tiny) bit more fuel though.

Sorry, just getting sick of red herring "space junk" articles like this one.

clith

kylo4

gibson042

It's your short-sightedness that seems to be most annoying. Man can surely survive a great many things, no argument there. But if animal species begin dying off because of our pollution, and diseases spread because of pollution, then that 'perfect world' we had before mankind came around won't be so perfect anymore to sustain life at the level we enjoy today. Am I saying that pollution of today will end all life tomorrow, in 10 years, in 1000 years? No, not necessarily. But there's no reason not to be concerned with the quality of life mankind will have to endure if we continue polluting the world as we are today. Where you might think that governments and other organizations are being extremist in how they portray how the world is going down the tubes because of pollution, it seems that you are just the extremist going in the opposite direction to say that pollution is not harming a thing and mankind will survive it. The truth is probably somewhere in between, but if these governments and organizations were to stop all the current efforts to inform the world of pollution and regulate it in some way, then that 'truth' will surely swing more towards mankind's self destruction, rather than your towards your rose colored glasses view of mankind's future.

I think you're just being disagreeable for the sake of being disagreeable.

yougottabekidding

Ribs

zingbot

It's like saying where most people live, the land has been destroyed in order to make houses and buildings. Der! So theres building pollution in most places too! AHHH the world is over and its all our fault!

nutbastard

brad.cozine

nightsky

GadgetPlay

SneakerFiend

Holy crap batman. They're going to trash a frigging satellite because the method to save it and make it useable has been patented ?
What more will it take for you americans to understand that your frakking patent system is fubar ?

Franssu

As for your final "opinion", you are wrong too. And that's why NASA and ESA are taking measures to REDUCE the amount of debris left behind, recuperate objects, splash unused satellites into the ocean, and deplete fuel in rocket stages so they DON'T explode before the fall into the lower atmosphere for burn out.

So yes, at this point it's possible to significantly reduce the debris, as shown by the simulations.

Please. please inform yourself before posting anything as fact. There are links in the article to LEARN more about this.

[cache.gizmodo.com]

Jesus Diaz

Yes, the graphics are misleading in that they are not delivering the information visually so much as they are trying to "shock you" by showing big clouds of debris. (See Tufte for a good discussion on these space debris images, which seem to pop up about once every two years for some reason).

I too wonder about the motivations for that.

Of course, it isn't the size or mass of the paint chip, it's the mass plus the velocity (not to mention your own velocity) that turns every one of these objects into a soul-liquifying bullet.

It's the velocities that account for concern over a frequency of intersection events, even though we are dealing with a lot of space and a relatively small number of objects. And if you are talking a space walk, tiny, fast, suit-ripping matter matters.

At this point, it is impossible to continue exploring space without leaving a trail of *something*, so what about that?

leMel

Dude: Read it again:

"im getting tired of every government, organization and company insisting we're fucking up this planet in every conceivable way, it's all us, the planet was perfect before WE came around."

I'm listing 3 things im tired of various entities insisting. Make sense now?

"As a test, don't throw your trash away to be picked up by someone else."

We don't have trash service where I live, so we take it to the dump, because that's the most logical thing to do. On the defecation front, we're also on a septic system. We use well water.

You seriously underestimate the robustness of man. We are far too spread out, far too innovative and adaptive in a pinch to die or even be injured by something as insignificant as human pollution. Look im not all for living in squaller, I'm just saying the whole thing is blown out of proportion. Being told constantly that we're completely ruining the planet ranks the same in my mind as some jackass saying "will it blend" or "FIRST!" in a forum.

nutbastard

LMFAO. If Buster couldn't make it, nobody can.

Skorpius

FP Furious_Liver, lacks independence

DeeZaster

What you call "junk" will act as a shield against comets, space rocks, and even alien spacecraft. It was part of the Star Wars project a few decades ago.

:)

ZR07

i doubt half the folks ranting around here would even understand what you just pointed out :)

as nutbastard said, some people out there try to make it look like we're fuckin this planet up royally, i guess its simply the human ego that makes them think they're capable of destroying the planet, and now its gone one level above just the planet

maybe you should watch those documentaries on what happened after a nuclear explosion took place in "space", and that documentary on geological proof that global climate change isn't a phenomenon newer than mankind for all you global warming fans out there...i'm not saying that those documentaries imply global warming and space debris are not problems, but they make you think again if you are convinced about those problems...

maybe we should flag this article for misleading images...?

anyways..out hunting for links to those documentaries..will brb

lemon.spray

minjae

nice!!! i had gotten to the meaning on the first page, but it was nice to see the video again

godwhacker

golferal

GadgetPlay

Wwhat

Wwhat

Skeptical_Geezer

cynep

Glamdering

Hopefully some sooner than others. :P Of course, I suppose that's one good thing about pollution. Weeding out the weak and the old.

yougottabekidding

"You keep referring to global warming as something man has no impact on."

No significant effect. I can drum on my desk all day, and i will never punch a hole through it. Does it damage the desk? yes, it does. Does it have the potential to significantly alter the desk? no.

@berribrand:

"Cars emit cancer causing substances, among other things you probably don't want to breath. Diesel PM is a known carcinogen as is benzene. Sure, not *everyone* will experience ill health effects from cars, but the risk is still there."

blah blah blah blah blah.

we're all going to die someday. BFD. i aint afraid of cancer. bring it on.

nutbastard

I said the planet was robust...WE are not, which would be the only reason to do something about the pollution issues if we wish to last much longer on this planet. The planet will eventually recover from all of our pollution given the chance to.

And you did in fact say the planet was perfect before we came around so you do in fact agree that the pollution is an issue.

I don't disagree with you that the earth's resources that we use were already there nor that the earth will someday reabsorb all of those resources. The problem with pollution is our own survival as a species along with the animal life that we see today. Do I think our pollution will end all life on this planet? No I don't. Perhaps all higher lifeforms, yes, it might.

As for you wishing the government and other entities stop regulating pollution, etc...I sincerely doubt that you do. As a test, don't throw your trash away to be picked up by someone else. Leave it in your living room. And when you go to the rest room, don't flush. Let's see how long you'll last without someone handling your waste for you.

And you're right, species do die out, and the planet will likely support life for a very long time. Whether we as a species are apart of that future is the issue at hand. You and I don't have to worry about it in our own future, but our descendents may, so why not look out for our species survival rather than just our own?

yougottabekidding

Oh and you cant just put a bag up there and catch stuff, it's moving very fast with a very large amount of energy, it will just punch though anything you try to grab it with.

I'm sure this will freak out the "OMG SPACE WEAPONSZZZZ!!!" group but the best option would be to place a either a high powered laser in orbit to place energy in to the item to deorbit it or a large conical mirror to reflect sunlight on to the object to deorbit it. I know Lockheed was working on using a mirror for propulsions a few years ago so they should have research done on it.

Technogen

I think you will find the following important video has a lot to say about fish, sweaters, and environmental hazards in an age of accelerating exploration in space. Don't give up until the music kicks in. Your patience will be rewarded.

+ Watch video

frigg

Amiash Loves You

justinbkay

Not true. Cars emit cancer causing substances, among other things you probably don't want to breath. Diesel PM is a known carcinogen as is benzene. Sure, not *everyone* will experience ill health effects from cars, but the risk is still there.

berribrand

which way is down in space ?

Johnny.Shitbox

I think if you are to continue to talk about global warming, you should be more educated about the subject.

berribrand

catfoodgood

catfoodgood

ViperBorg

GadgetPlay

Just send a few satellites with giant kevlar coated sticky paper sails.
When sails are full, point it to the sun and forget about it.

Call me in the morning....

aec007

nutbastard

bigusiak

thechansen

I'm not saying it's not a problem, but it's a problem mostly because we rely so heavily on orbits within a very small range. Not without reason, it's much harder to launch something travelling in a north-south orientation than east-west near the equator, but the sacrifice for everyone driving along the fastest highway is more traffic, and more accidents.

The underlying articles have some more sane numbers...

For example, for a satellite with a 100-m2 cross-sectional area (including solar panels) orbiting at 400 km altitude, the mean time between impact with a debris object 10 cm in size has been calculated to be on the order of 15 000 years.

That's not really so bad.

I'm not saying it's not a problem, not getting worse, or that we shouldn't do anything about it, but we need some perspective. It's a big sky out there and we really can afford some early mistakes... the right people are already taking steps to fix the problems... whats' the worry?

ZahrGnosis

That was really only directed at that comment. But then again after thinking about all the organisms that live near thermal openings in the deep ocean. They would survive anything that happens on the surface of the planet so you are correct.

thechansen

and it's still true that the toxic materials don't actually exist until we create them by setting off the nukes.

nutbastard

But that's not pollution in the conventional sense - thats a concerted effort to screw up the planet - and life, including human life, would still prevail. McDonalds wrappers and car exhaust are not hurting a damn thing.

nutbastard

thechansen

On a more serious note, why do the orbits, of stuff we want to stay up, deteriorate, but the junk seems immortal?

GadgetPlay

saych

i dont produce anything that wasn't here before we all showed up. Lead, Oil, Uranium, Mercury - they come from the friggin ground, just like everything else. The Earth is fine and will continue to support life for billions of years. Oh, what's that? Some rare species of seagull died because of us? Who cares? Species die out all the time for many unfair reasons.

The bottom line is, there isn't enough toxic material on the planet to make the planet uninhabitable.

nutbastard

No, it isn't something i agree with. We don't have the resources to fuck this planet up.

"Would you be happier if they all said that there was no problem with pollution, and did nothing to help or to regulate at least some of it?"

Yes, I would.

"How much pollution is your computer producing right now"

An infinitesimally insignificant amount. As for when it goes to the landfill - where do you think all the materials come from in the first place? from the fucking ground.

"As for the planet being perfect before us, I would agree. And it will be perfect after us. Yes, we're screwing it up now for all of us and our children, and all the animals, but when all is said and done, this planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas."

so how's the kool-aid flavor of the decade? is it good?

So we're screwing it up really bad, you say, and we have to do something about it, and in the same sentence declare how robust and resistant to human or other 'destructive' or 'polluting' activity the earth is. Uh huh.

nutbastard

Barry99705

thechansen

jonesy777

Let's use the bits to make a Niven Ring!

strider_mt2k

ideaman2020

ideaman2020

Akmed

Navin R Johnson

Bokusatsu_Tenshi

omigod, i am so sorry for that one
* backs away briskly *

bosskev

the part about dear nutbastard leaving his clothes behind! Oh, the Humanity!

ps61318

AlphaUltima

kezratt1

@nutbastard: "But there's plenty of "natural" space junk and im getting tired of every government, organization and company insisting we're fucking up this planet in every conceivable way, it's all us, the planet was perfect before WE came around."

Sounds a bit hypocritical...unless of course you yourself don't produce trash on this planet. Not to mention that in one breath you complain about "every government, organization and company insisting we're fucking up this planet in every conceivable way", and yet it's something you totally agree with. Would you be happier if they all said that there was no problem with pollution, and did nothing to help or to regulate at least some of it? Would you be happy if city governments shut down all sewage and trash collection and disposal operations? How much pollution is your computer producing right now as a result of the energy it's consuming, never mind the pollution it created being made, and the pollution it may make when you finally get rid of it? Unfortunately, the progression of mankind has never found a true balance with nature, but I don't see how you can complain about government and other organizations' attempts to inform the populace of the issues, and to regulate them. Why don't you help us all out and leave your possessions behind, including your clothes, go out and live in an'almost untouched by man' wilderness, and become one with nature? Oh, and don't cook your food with fire. We can't handle any more pollution from you.

As for the planet being perfect before us, I would agree. And it will be perfect after us. Yes, we're screwing it up now for all of us and our children, and all the animals, but when all is said and done, this planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas. Barring a major cosmic disaster like an asteroid strike or the sun going supernova, this earth will out survive us all for millions of years. Just ask the dinosaurs.

yougottabekidding

jeblis

Huh? Um ... okay. BTW, I have NO religion whatsoever. I'm a atheist. Which to most is the same as being a devil worshipper.

dead_red_eyes

chonnes

suck Suck SUCK

sg1

Calm down, everybody, it's called satire.

bosskev

Clearly, you have never been to my place.

bosskev

Jon R.

minimini

Sora57

Much in the same way that they found the Titanic by looking for the debris trail, it should be much easier to find these large satellite clouds rather than piecemeal hunts for individual planets.

Jordan Lund

Or, to put it in terms that I understand better:
We all know from leaving crap around the house, it eventually gets picked up. This issue is how long we are willing to wait.

Monty

99% of this planet does not suffer from 'light pollution'. they're called rural areas, and they make up the vast majority of the land surface of the earth.

nutbastard

nutbastard

Considering "light pollution" increasingly interferes with our ability to see stars (future generations may not), and the fact that fish aren't everywhere - they can't play baseball, they don't wear sweaters, they're not good dancers, and they don't play drums - I respectfully question the validity of your assertion.

frigg

Monty

noah

N@tedog

nutbastard

Manve

frigg

Needadrink

decrigeek

a mass clusterfuck of cells creating a intergalactical tumor

pretty gnarly

Mrbungleface

nutbastard

CSX321

MY GAWD...the answer to global warming was up there all along!

(that was sarcasm you heard in my typing) :)

sshrum

dwight-schrute

Dark-Dx

majortom1981

You said it!

strider_mt2k

"The atmosphere is so big, we'll never fill it up with smog."

"The forests are so big, we'll never run out of trees."

"The oceans are so big, we'll never overfish them."

Sheesh people. Spacejunk has already been an issue for years. It already has an impact on missions. If it gets worse, that's a bad thing.

AndyDuncan

@sshrum:

Planetes was the first thing that came to my mind.

I've always thought it painted a pretty realistic picture of the future of space exploration and the problems we are going to have.

Bender

crap-action-jackson

[upload.wikimedia.org]

SigmundTheSeaMonster

Not to mention all these groups like Virgin Galactic. In a couple decades when they're cruising to orbit daily they might have to take seroius precautions to avoid damage from all this crap.

tonyn84

Adolf

Spaceboy

Jesus Diaz

twanj030

Sometimes they simply doon't 'ave the powah!

nutbastard

Well, before takeoff, can't those crews just be sure their deflector dishes are working correctly? I mean, c'mon, if they'd just do their job with a little bit of proper mainten...oh, wait.

Nevermind.

bosskev

is it 5 oclock yet - sigh

mtopper

"Unfortunately, the upper management (as is usually the case) suffers from head-ass syndrome."

Thats what i mean. Bless the engineers. It's like if im talking about Sony being douchebags, I mean the shot-callers, not the people who actually DO something.

nutbastard

mtopper

agree.

if the graphics were to scale, WE WOULDNT EVEN SEE THE SHIT!!!!!!!!!!

next topic please.

mtopper

@Curves
@nutbastard

guess I can kiss all chance of a star goodbye

mtopper

this is ridciulous. drinking water contains more crap as a % of water than space contains space debris as a % of "space"

lets worry about something that a) we can fix and b) has an impact on the lives of actual people on earth

mtopper

DeepFriar

grok666

tamoko

ATTENTION GIZ READERS:

I NOMINATE MINDSHADOW FOR THE I-CAN-FIX-TWO-OF-MANKINS-LARGEST-PROBLEMS-WITH-ONE-SOLUTION-THAT REQUIRES-US-TO-DO-NOTHING AWARD.

mtopper

frigg

tamoko

Abnormal

@nutbastard: I've hung out with a lot of NASA engineers, and they're hardly what you'd expect. Unfortunately, the upper management (as is usually the case) suffers from head-ass syndrome.

workingonyourinvoice

I'd agree, if i weren't virtually positive that we already have orbital weapons platforms.

I think, like this whole global warming bullshit (bullshit in that it's not our fault - the entire solar system is heating up) it's a push for world government, getting the people used to the idea of a Unified Earth, in the name of quelling terrorism (satisfies the rednecks) environmental problems (satisfies the hippies) and a few other, more sinister goals.

nutbastard

Sora57

I'm with you Nutbastard - NASA needs to change it's methodology and ideals fast, or they'll remain irrelevant as (hopefully) privately developed and funded space flight, figuratively, takes off.

tamoko

apeguero

"Micro-debris is no joke for the ISS, Soyuz or the shuttle."

I agree, but the ISS, Soyuz and the Shuttle ARE a joke.

nutbastard

tamoko

nutbastard

@nutbastard: See above. This is not about fucking up the planet, it's about putting infrastructures and lives at risk. Micro-debris is no joke for the ISS, Soyuz or the shuttle.

Jesus Diaz

riqgeez

techwhiz140

I like the idea of zapping the random paint chips, bolts, gloves, etc with a gigawatt laser to cook them off, or de-orbit them, but this might be a job that goes on indefinitely. And who pays for this? The US?, the UN? Torchwood?

tamoko

Problem solved. See you on Monday.

MrAwes0me

well, it's a bit more complicated than that, the relative velocities of small particles vs a space shuttle are enough to do real damage. if those cars were traveling at thousands of miles an hour, it would be tough to avoid collisions on an eventual scale.

@Jesus Diaz:

Yeah but NASA's on my shitlist, a bunch of morons perpetuating an old paradigm of ancient, dangerous technology. A bunch of sensationalist, self-important blowhards IMO. So... that's where that comes from.

IS space junk a problem? sure. But there's plenty of "natural" space junk and im getting tired of every government, organization and company insisting we're fucking up this planet in every conceivable way, it's all us, the planet was perfect before WE came around.

It has the distinct flavor of propaganda, but for what purpose i do not know.

nutbastard

.tox

NightBlade

Gizmo

thegoonie

coldconfession13

Munch the BanNail

GoatMonkey

Jesus_Jones

Slap Bet

Slap Bet

aussie

Then, look at the image of the microimpact and the projections.

This problem is very real, and both NASA and ESA take it very seriously.

Jesus Diaz

innout3x3

chris@trade2save

Do you have any idea the VOLUME of space these things occupy? It's much more than the volume of the earth itself. 6,000 objects, from screwdrivers to car sized, and theres in excess of the entire volume of the earth in which they live.

If the graphics were to scale, it would be significant. But those dots are being shown at thousands of times their actual size relative to the earth.

nutbastard

WMyers

ps61318

Seiven

XJ_4x4

Hahahaha. Hilarious!

dead_red_eyes

dead_red_eyes

HeD

Curves

You hear me NASA? ESA? Russia? China? Anybody..?

ideaman2020

puckerbuttproject

sshrum

UofITom

Git Em SteveDave is a poor substitute for LindsayJoy

Space garbage men...hauling in old satellites

sshrum

Rev. Eaton Yorke Hunt

Darrone

discounteggroll

delithic

lladnar

ZING!

N@tedog

sshrum

Darrone

Yeebles

the_goz