The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane - Gizmodo Comments

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

smeee — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 02:30:20 EDT

When geeks argue...let the one-upping comence!!

smeee

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

wayno007 — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:10:19 EDT

@LittleJon: I'm at the office, sitting at my desk, reading this thread while eating my lunch, napkin at my side. It's much more convenient that the post-it notes, which are clear across my desk. And more absorbent, too.

wayno007

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

sirebral — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 11:25:54 EDT

packetsniffer,
The aeolipile is not a jet concept in the narrow sense of a Brayton compressor, it is a rocket concept with no intake of oxidizing oxygen.

sirebral

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

deliciousburglar — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:31:06 EDT

@wonkydonky:

the somehow would be by being throw, if something is going at a high rpm and is not centered, it turns from spinning to catapulting.

deliciousburglar

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Stargaze — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:57:51 EDT

I am surprised that it's not been mentioned yet, but there was a really good program on NOVA a while back (2002) that followed and documented the JSF Competition, which ultimately was between Lockheed Martin and Boeing (yes, Boeing). It called "Battle of the X-Planes" and was very well done. It's on Netflix for those of you interested.

Oh, and for those of you who thinks the F-35 is ugly, you should be thankful that the Boeing version was not selected....
[en.wikipedia.org]

Stargaze

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

wonkydonky — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:06:05 EDT

@daveNYC: gears have nothing to do with a shaft that has the slightest imbalance in it.
I saw the show on DSC/TLC? for this and their single biggest concern was that the shaft and the lift fan would explode somehow due to an imbalance at very high rpm.

wonkydonky

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

LittleJon — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:21:41 EDT

@moogoescow: Yes, but it's far further ahead of the game than we need to be!

The design for the F-22 originates from the cold war era. The world changed, but the design didn't.

Economically it doesn't make any sense. As the Deputy Sec. of Defense said:

"The [F-35] performance and the F-22 performance is extraordinarily close. ... [The F-35] is a much newer airplane, so it also has very similar, if not in some cases better, performance with other attributes."

Each F-35 costs $35M, but the F-22 costs $120M! Given the fact that Air Force has finite financial resources they would be better served by quantity over quality.

LittleJon

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

inovak — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:18:18 EDT

Exactly the same, wow.

inovak

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Silent_Shark — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:38:44 EDT

Ah, I'll withdraw my previous comment in part. It seems that Whittle and Hans are jointly credited with the invention (Whittles idea, Hans actually made it happen).

British national pride in effect I suppose. I'd not heard much of the guy in any of the dozens of documentaries I've seen about the jet (all shows made in england probably!).

Silent_Shark

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Silent_Shark — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:33:42 EDT

Woah, woah, woah. What did I just hear him say?

"...the german scientist who invented the jet engine..."

As a Brit, I take issue with that statement.

Still, can't hate the guy for coming up with a really cool idea. Watching a F-35 open all the doors and take off vertically is an awesome sight. I can't wait for these things to get into production so we can see them at airshows.

Silent_Shark

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Jermajesty — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:56:18 EDT

Functionality is Form.

Jermajesty

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Akmed — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:48:20 EDT

they should do this with a private jet.

(pulls up Autodesk Inventer..)

Akmed

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

moogoescow — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:31:24 EDT

@LittleJon: What are you talking about? F-22 is a air superiority fighter meant to keep our air force ahead of the game.

moogoescow

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Digitalwanderer — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:16:32 EDT

@Sergeant JoKer: Why, thank you. Perils of the job...

Digitalwanderer

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

br4nd0n — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:46:42 EDT

HUH F-35 ugly?
When the fan doors come down it'll look like a F-22.

[url][upload.wikimedia.org]]

br4nd0n

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

LittleJon — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:34:39 EDT

@dabub: The F-22 may be nice looking, but the waste of tax payers' money is very ugly. The F-22 was designed to fight the Cold War and a non-existent Soviet Union.

LittleJon

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Xavoc — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:31:48 EDT

@MRP123: That's the upcoming Canyonero model.

Xavoc

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

MRP123 — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:19:53 EDT

STVOL and Super Sonic ! It's the Bomb!

Or is that what it drops on your head?

But only a single seat?

How about room for family of four, and a spacious trunk?

MRP123

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

mricyfire — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:06:58 EDT

Awesome plane!

mricyfire

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Buran — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:36:26 EDT

[www.aixtended.com]

Here's the Soviet Yak-38, their response to the Harrier. (Pic is from a Battlefield 2 mod I play).

It uses three engines, not one (the Harrier also had just one and used swivelling ducts to direct thrust), and had all kids of reliability problems so it never went into wide use the way the Harrier did.

Buran

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Jesus Diaz — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:26:28 EDT

@Kaiser-Machead: I wouldn't be able to decide a favorite, quite honestly. During the WW2 I like the Spitfire, the Hurricane, the Mustang and the original Lightning. And the B-29 too. That on the Allied side.

Jesus Diaz

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

godwhacker — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:22:29 EDT

@daveNYC:
what kind of gears? a planetary set?
and how do gears cancel out an imbalance in a driveshaft?
inquiring minds want to know. really.
i'm not just bein snarky
i gots to know

godwhacker

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Sergeant JoKer — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:53:39 EDT

@Digitalwanderer: Wow. Somebody knows their jet fighters!

Sergeant JoKer

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Jules Winfield — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:40:15 EDT

...Yes, Mr. Bevilaqua.

Jules Winfield

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

dabub — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:36:36 EDT

F-35 is a fugly plane, but I disagree on the comment that they are getting more and more fugly. F-22 for example is a beautiful aircraft.

dabub

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

kavex — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:30:18 EDT

Where can I place my order to defeat pesky LA traffic?

kavex

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Kaiser-Machead's Chips Ahoy! — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:26:49 EDT

@Cobolman2: I'm gonna have to disagree fully and support the P-51 Mustang. That plane is chock-full of aerial glory.

Kaiser-Machead's Chips Ahoy!

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Cobolman2 — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:24:29 EDT

The plane is keen....and yeah, kinda fugly. But that's okay too. The A-10 is way beyond fugly, but it's still cool.

And the most beautiful plane ever is the SR-71.

Cobolman2

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Digitalwanderer — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:19:35 EDT

@Sergeant JoKer: Not to be Capt Obvious, but you do realize that the picture you posted is of the same plane, only not finished

Actually, not quite - superbryant88's image is an F-35B, the production model that's currently being built. The images and videos in the original post are the X-35B concept demonstrator. The most obvious differences are the changes to the door covering the top side of the lift fan and the lower side fan exhaust.

Digitalwanderer

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Lannon — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:58:42 EDT

I think you need to take another look at that headline. Do you means "First supersonic VTOL plane?"

Lannon

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

LittleJon — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:32:22 EDT

@packetsniffer: Yeah, yeah! Of course! But the first functioning jet engine was built by Whittle.

Nothing is invented by one person at one moment in time. As an engineer I understand that better than most! But if Dr. Paul Bevilaqua is going to credit von Ohain with the invention then I'd say that if any one person can lay claim to that it's Whittle.

LittleJon

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

ninjatales — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:31:02 EDT

@ninjatales: Who the dickens removed the image of the YF-23A?

ninjatales

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Digitalwanderer — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:14:37 EDT

Uh. The second set of doors on the upper surface are Auxiliary INLET doors, to allow extra air to be fed to the engine at low speeds. The stuff about "bleed air from the top of the aircraft running over the winds (sic)" and the arrow pointing from the inlets in the second image are absolutely 100% incorrect.

Digitalwanderer

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

packetsniffer — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:53:43 EDT

"According to Bevilaqua, the best way to create power from the engine is by using a turbine"
Well, that does happen to be the basis for every jet engine.

@LittleJon:
Actually, Frank Whittle did not invent the jet engine -- neither did Hans von Ohain. The idea went as far back as the the first century AD with the aeolipile. The invention of the jet engine simply can't be attributed to any one person.

Hans von Ohain was merely the first person to have his invention turned into the world's first jet airplane. Furthermore, he was likely unaware of Whittle's work in the first place.

packetsniffer

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

junyo — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:49:58 EDT

@mschipperheyn:
VTOL was conceived by Tesla (among others) in 1928. The Harrier is simply one of the first practical applications of the concept.

@Canoehead:
The Dassault Mirage IIIV was a supersonic capable VTOL aircraft, though it never made production.

junyo

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Kaiser-Machead's Chips Ahoy! — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:44:37 EDT

@LittleJon: Napkins don't agree with any of my drafting utensils, so I'm inclined to agree.

Kaiser-Machead's Chips Ahoy!

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

LittleJon — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:41:34 EDT

If he was "sitting at his desk", then why did he use a napkin?

This is just marketing people trying to continue the public stereotype of how science and engineering work. Sure you could say that "napkin" is short hand, but equally you could call BS.

LittleJon

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

LittleJon — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:39:03 EDT

Frank Whittle (UK) invented the jet engine, not Hans von Ohain (Germany). Von Ohain started later and didn't have a working engine until after Whittle. What's more, he may well have taken the idea from Whittle's patent.

LittleJon

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

ninjatales — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:32:40 EDT

Bring the YF-23A "Black Widow II" BACK!

ninjatales

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

BasicBlack — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:20:07 EDT

@Kaiser-Machead: "I wouldn't get any scale models of it :P"

Aerodynamic design is liquid and lovely. Marry it to radar deflection and you have one ugly baby.

BasicBlack

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

strider_mt2k — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:10:45 EDT

@uberfu:
The comments system isn't broken, merely flawed.
It just takes a post to shove the others out some times.
What you are doing there is the equivalent of posting the word "push", which I can assure you is a very bad thing to do.
Allow me take you back to my early days here at Gizmodo...
[CUE FLASHBACK EFFECT]
The year was 2006..6...6...6
[gizmodo.com]

strider_mt2k

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

strider_mt2k — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:06:53 EDT

There is a prototype on display at the Smithsonian's Steven S. Udvar-Hazy Center in Virginia.

I was very surprised at how small it is for it's capabilities.
Pretty little thing too.

strider_mt2k

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Sergeant JoKer — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:05:23 EDT

@Canoehead: Says in the wikipedia article that you posted that it never achieved supersonic flight...
"The Yak-141M was supposed to fly at speeds of Mach 1.7, but it was never able to fly supersonic, and was claimed to have had a maneuverability comparable to the Mikoyan MiG-29."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-141

Sergeant JoKer

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Canoehead — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:58:29 EDT

I believe that the Ruskies Yak-141A was supersonic - though the JSF is way cooler.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Canoehead

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

uberfu — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:58:22 EDT

uberfu

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

uberfu — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:58:06 EDT

Jesus
"the bleed air coming the bleed air coming off from the top runs over the winds so the F-35B handles smoothly"

You might want to re-read this sentence in your article_

;- )

uberfu

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

BasicBlack — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:57:48 EDT

@Sergeant JoKer:

OK, that's just funny.

BasicBlack

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Sergeant JoKer — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:55:04 EDT

@superbryant88: Not to be Capt Obvious, but you do realize that the picture you posted is of the same plane, only not finished.

Sergeant JoKer

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Kaiser-Machead's Chips Ahoy! — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:50:31 EDT

I agree with Darrone too. It seems that, while planes are getting more advanced, they sure are hard on the eyes. I realize too that it's not an aesthetics contest like concept cars, but planes like the F-16, F-14 and back to WW2 era planes like the P-51, P-40 and so forth were all beautiful masterpieces to behold. Badass plane though, but I wouldn't get any scale models of it :P

Kaiser-Machead's Chips Ahoy!

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Kaiser-Machead's Chips Ahoy! — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:47:35 EDT

John McClain jumped the shark when he slid off the back end of one of these.

Kaiser-Machead's Chips Ahoy!

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

mschipperheyn — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:38:56 EDT

As good as this idea is, let's not forget that the true "forever changing take off and landing idea" was the British Harrier jet with which VTOL landing was conceived. It was subsonic, I believe, but that's just potatoes, potatos.

mschipperheyn

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Darrone — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:31:32 EDT

@Luuey: That doesn't make it any less fugly. Obviously there not designing war machines to be stylish.

But some of those 90's war planes were baaaaaaaadass. And this, looks like it should have the nickname "hippo"

Darrone

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

daveNYC — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:31:10 EDT

not to mention balancing a shaft to turn at turbine speed!!

They have these things called gears that probably help with that problem.

daveNYC

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

godwhacker — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:17:32 EDT

i would love to see the cv/u-joints at either end of the drive shaft
gotta be some crazy stuff
not to mention balancing a shaft to turn at turbine speed!!

godwhacker

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

mrxcel — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:13:13 EDT

Hold on on getting this Jet, the 2009 model will come with stereo bluetooth and the new XM/Sirius receiver....

mrxcel

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Luuey — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:12:42 EDT

@Noobs-R-Us:

I'm pretty sure he's makes his fair share of the dough.

Luuey

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Gonzie — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:11:48 EDT

@Darrone:

it's not mean to be pretty it's meant to do the job

Gonzie

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Noobs-R-Us — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:02:20 EDT

Yea, but I bet he got paid next to nothing for it even though it has made his employer billions.

THAT my friend is the definition of a first nation sweat shop!

Noobs-R-Us

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

riqgeez — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:56:08 EDT

I'll just park it in my driveway and on my way to work . . . VVVVRRRRROOOOOOSSSSSSHHHHHHHH !!!!

riqgeez

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

BasicBlack — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:56:06 EDT

Everyday, crazy sumbitch + Math + OCD = Engineer

BasicBlack

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

DustyButt — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:53:35 EDT

I can't believe I passed on his resume to be on staff at my EvilSecretVolcano™ laboratory site.

Dammit!

DustyButt

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

superbryant — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:33:39 EDT

[www.popsci.com]
This one is better!

superbryant

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

SigmundTheSeaMonster — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:28:44 EDT

I saw the making of this on (?) Discovery last year. The biggest obstacle was preventing the lift exhaust from recirculating back into the lift fan and stalling.
I bet they got the tail exhaust mechanism from Home Depot..just look at the 4" ducting elbows ... they bend just like that.

SigmundTheSeaMonster

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Darrone — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:28:28 EDT

Fuuuuugly.

Darrone

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

thepeopleselbow — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:25:08 EDT

It's like the moller merlin, only.....

thepeopleselbow

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

wanago — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:21:57 EDT

If you send this plane to the british will Prince William use it for visiting his girlfriend?

wanago

The History Behind the F-35B Vertical Lift: from Napkin to First Supersonic Plane

Joseph — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:17:58 EDT

Looks like a freaking mac commercial. All he needs is a black mock neck shirt and the ensemble will be complete.

Joseph