Hare-brained scheming? Microsoft? Surely some mistake!

Seems like a leap, but whatever. Everyone is to blame for this in my book, retailers, hardware companies and Microsoft.

This whole thing is such a non-issue. I worked at BestBuy during the XP-Vista transition (October 2005-February 2007), We were DROWNING in information about what Capable vs Premium meant. All of it accurate, and clearly stating that capable meant it would run Vista, but not all of the capabilities of it.

It's the fault of the employee for not forwarding the information, or the customer for not asking the difference. Plain and simple.

Considering that everybody is upgrading to Windows XP anyway, who cares? I apprecaite that if everyone wanted to run Vista that people would be upset that they got 'taken' by a label. (The fact that there are people that believe labels is a bit amusing.) However, it turns out that no one wants to run Vista anyway (even if it did 'best' OS X in that laptop security competition), so, as I said before: Who cares?

@BlueModred: See you're smart so it' a non-issue to you, but the average consumer wouldn't be able to figure out if a laptop was Vista-capped/ vista-capable. It's gotta be super simple for the mases.

They only thing that is tempting about Vista is DX 10, but it's not enough for me to a: buy a new graphics card, and b: upgrade to an OS iteration that I'm still not convinced isn't Windows ME 2.

If this were discussing Leopard and Apple I guarantee the words "hare-brained" would not appear anywhere the post. I say its 1/3 MS's fault for allowing such a marketing campaign on their bread and butter that millions of people would be buying into, 1/3 the retail employees' fault for not being upfront and honest with the consumer, and 1/3 the consumer's fault for not inquiring further about the larger purchase that they were about to make.

@BlueModred:@Joseph: You're both right. everyones a little to blame, but I won't go harping on Microsoft just because they lowered the bar on processors. They were looking for the maximun number of platforms, it just makes business sense.

@Monty: Agreed, Vista is almost a none issue - no buzz, excitement or enthusiasm. Vienna will either be a brillant OS, filled with innovative features and a revolutionary UI, or it will just be Vista 2.0, or somewhere inbetween. I guess we'll see...

@DomZ: Bingo!

Could've been... Should've been... Would've been... Ooops too late.

Just because you were pressured doesn't take you off the hook. Microsoft knew what was best for THEIR product and let things get this bad. It falls squarely on Microsoft and the Manufacturer of the Particular product (HP/Sony etc. For once I don't blame the consumer, Vista Ready and Vista Capable is intentionally misleading. HDTV did the same thing with the whole HD Ready and HD Capable.

I was pressured not to include the closing parenthesis, so I didn't put it in the previous post, therefore it wasn't my fault.

@Joseph: I understand what you are saying. I guess I am just of the opinion that of you spend the kind of money that is necessary for a computer, you better be asking some questions.

Anyone who doesn't and is surprised deserves what happens. I saw it FAR too often back then. Maybe I'm jaded.
"I want that $399 laptop"
Me: Are you sure? It's a celeron with 512 mb of ram...
"It will run my autocad just fine! Gimme!"

Ugh...

It worries me that Microsoft folded under pressure from BEST BUY of all companies!!! BEST BUY is the root of all technological evil as far as I am concerned. (Either that or just a convenient scapegoat in this instance.)

Wait, microsoft jacked vista, all on their own?
Will wonders never cease.

That OS is as unstable as a Manson family Xmas, and as resource thirsty as an Iraqi oil baron. Go fig, its the guys who made it, that made it suck.

@Joseph: I completely agree. But, I honestly feel that if someone is going to be outraged that Vista wasn't running to their expectations, they should at least have become an informed consumer before purchasing either Vista or that underpowered hardware and known about the possibility of this happening.

Give Vista 6 years to work out the kinks like XP, and the situation would be the same...

I think that maybe microsoft did that because when nvidia graphics cards are sold in stores like bestbuy, circuit city, etc. they make more profit than if they come with the computer.
So since microsoft is more of an intel company and intel and nvidia are basically AMD and ATI's direct competitors they push for vista capable pc's so that buyers would have to upgrade their video card/graphics card to support the vista aero feature.
Now sure not a lot of people could give a shit about aero but there arent that many computers that come with 2GB of ram or 3GB or 4GB for that matter that have the integrated intel graphics/video card.
Could this all be a marketing scheme for nvidia and microsoft or maybe microsoft is just stupid and cant make a lighter software that more standard and low spec. computers can support

Everyone is too blame, microsoft,intel,manufacturers and stores. None of them had to go with what the other was suggesting but they did so thats makes the part of the problem or blame too.

by BlueModred at 11:32 AM Reply
This whole thing is such a non-issue. I worked at BestBuy during the XP-Vista transition...

It's the fault of...the customer for not asking the difference. Plain and simple.

Spoken like a true Best Buy employee.

Damn those pesky customers for thinking that "Vista Capable" or "Vista Ready" meant a computer could actually run Vista and not just some stripped down Vista Lite version. Stupid customers--just as stupid as the Microsoft exec who testified to the same thing in court, saying how obvious the difference between the two stickers is, and how no body could confuse them--er, except he actually had which was which 100% backwards. Yup, clearly the customer's fault--for shopping at Best Buy anyway.

@BlueModred: The average person that does into Best Buy and asks questions are not going to know what questions to ask about Vista. They see a sticker, they see the machine has Vista installed in the ad, and the salesman rings them up and pushed cables and useless warranties on them. The more educated consumer either knows the answers through research or knows not to ask.

Whatever happened to store responsibility? As a retailer of *ahem* fine merchandise, your are representing the products you sell. The products that you do sell represent your company. A product gives your company a bad image? Do not sell it or make it right (like the BB and CC HD-DVD Gift cards and vouchers). If there is a faulty product, a retailer has the responsibility to stop selling that product. BB is not forced to buy the enitire line of Compaq laptops, that is what they choose. They know the base line computers ALWAYS have issues, but as long as people keep buying them, and there is no retailer responsibility, the items will remain in stock. In the words of Dave Chapelle "People ask why do we treat the customer this way? Cuz, F*ck Em!"

Microsoft takes a lion's share of the blame. Did they want Vista to fail? Why spec computers with it or even a capable logo if it runs like SHIT on them. Why tarnish the image?!?! Why no limit it to certain hardware? It runs fine if you are well over spec, but why do they allow Celeron 1.5 laptops with 1G of memory and a shitty vid chip to be sold with Vista installed? MS failed on this BIG TIME.

@Lizard_King: So let me ask you a question:
Say someone buys a new car, without asking any questions about its capabilities, gas mileage etc. Then, when they get it home, they try to do something and it doesn't meet their expectations. Whose fault is it?Do you fault the company for selling something the customer asked for? What if the customer was warned? Is it still the car company's fault?

Like I said, we were inundated with information about Vista, the sticker program, and the definition of a Vista capable and Vista Premium PC.

To this day I cannot count the number of people who thought I was laying to them when I was selling them computers. The example I used earlier: Some kid came in asking for a $399 celeron based system thinking it would run autocad. I warned him.
Sure it installed, but it did not run in any usable way. He came in the next week pissed because it would not run.

Whose fault is that? Am I supposed to deny a customer what they ask for just because they are uninformed?
No, there is some responsibility for the customer to get informed, ask questions etc.

What about the Vista Capable PC's bought at Sam's Club or Costco, where you pick the box and pay, with no salesman help or advice? Is it Sam's Club's fault too?

@Lizard_King: Oh and by the way. you said:
"The average person that does into Best Buy and asks questions are not going to know what questions to ask about Vista. They see a sticker, they see the machine has Vista installed in the ad..."

This whole issue is NOT about systems that came with Vista installed. It's about the systems sold between October 15th 2006 and March 16 2007 that had XP on them that were labeled according to the ability with which they could run Vista.

@BlueModred: I understand that it was just an issue for stickered computers. My message relates to both the stickered, and I think what is worse, the computers with it installed, but incapable of using to any real degree.

You work in a retail environment without integrity. You (as a salesman and, and more importantly BB) sold a product that did not live up to advertised claims. So, in reality while you did not lie, the customer thinks you did, and that is all that matters.

BB sold these products, they are part of the chain. The last part of the retail chain, the part that sells to the end user is the one that has to fix most issues. Welcome to retail.

@Lizard_King: You're off on the information. there is no complaint about computers that came with Vista Preinstalled. It's the systems that came with XP that had the Vista capability stickers that are the issue.
People are claiming that Windows Vista Basic is not Windows Vista (horsehockey, but still), and that capable should stand for everything.

Here's how I feel:
A: It's a matter of semantics, and there are arguments for both sides.
B: If the custoemr didn't ask, it's their fault, since employees were instructed to explain the differences, and there was plenty of info to go around.

Finally, EVERY computer that came with Windows Vista preinstalled was FULLY capable of running the OS that was on it. Sure, if it came with Windows Vista Basic, it didn't have the eye candy or Media center, but that's not what those people bought it for.
And besides, the lawsuit isn't over these anyway...

Am I the only person who actually prefers Vista to XP. I have had no issues with it since upgrading my laptop and in fact my laptop runs better now than it did before.

@prof who

seriously man. i love vista, and have no problems.

but on topic, i would say it it as some have said, EVERYBODY'S fault.

i would put MOST, but not all of the blame on microsoft and the consumer though. i think microsoft should have had higher requirements, but when investing in something like a computer the buyer should actually do some research.

oh well, im over it, i didnt buy a "vista capable" machine. so im not real worried.

@BlueModred: I've already stated that I understand this issue was for stickered computers, meaning one with the "Vista Capable" logo. I also understand that this does not affect Vista pre-loaded computers that you claim are fully capable. (1G is not fully capable)

I've felt that both issues were similar, I guess I should keep them apart.

To answer a previous question, BB hires people to walk around and act like they are experts for what reason? So a customer will make a decision quicker and/or feel more comfortable spending more money. It has nothing to do with giving knowledge to the customer. They've created an atmosphere like this to increase sales, so when the problems arise, YES, BB is going to take blame. It's part of the business model. The customer feels like they should have been warned by this expert, or has been tricked or lied to. BB provides the "expert" help, so a customer feels they do not need to do the research. If I walk into Costo, I don't have any false asumptions that I am getting expert advise. Shitty situation, I know.

Look man, I'm not blaming you or calling you out or flaming you...you probably know more about computers than anyone I've seen in a blue polo and khakis. Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, at this part of the retail chain, customer perception is more important than any facts.

@Lizard_King: No problem, I'm not taking it personally. You raise valid points, calmly too. A rarity these days. ;-) And I appreciate the vote of confidence...

Again, I would disagree that one GB of ram is not enough for a Vista PC. My HTPC and Folding@Home rig has 1gb and runs just fine. Average specs too (C2D E6300, 8600GTS). Will it scream at Crysis, no. But it boots up faster than when it has XP pro on it.

Either way, I guess we just differ in how much responsibility we think the consumer has for researching their product. A fine line do doubt, but a central issue in this whole law suit. It will be interesting to see how the courts rule, as it will have big consequences for future software and hardware releases and advertising...

@ProfWho: I've been running Vista without issue on my Vista CAPABLE laptop for the better part of a year now. After using Vista.. XP seems clunky.

Scum - pure and simple.

If the sales person wasn't so freakin desperate to get the sale, they would AT LEAST ask a tech WHAT vista capable meant, and get brief demo.

But sorry, that doesn't happen VERY often in real life.

Anything with a Vista Capable sticker on it that was on display was lazy cat slow already, and cranking up the visuals would have made it dead and buried cat.

I think Ubuntu learned from something like this. Ubuntu gives you three options for visual display splendor, and it will quickly test out your hardware, and tell you if it can deliver that splendor. Then there's always Compiz.

Like any other operating system, Vista has it's quirks, and just like any other operating system, requires proper configuration. I doubt this particular investigation will do much to Microsoft, which has been able to pay legal fees and fines, and continues to receive money from consumers, corporations, and investors.

The only time Microsoft will ever be affected, is when the percentage of Windows based operating systems worldwide is below 50%.