I'd never really thought of that before, but you're right. It's nice to hold the book in your hands and know exactly how far you've gotten, how far there is to go.

I've read a lot of books electronically, but that doesn't even slow the growth of my physical book collection.

Women only need to read cookbooks. You better set yours back on the straight and narrow, or pretty soon she will be trying to control the tv remote as well.

You know, that really explains something to me. I tried reading some books on my PC before and I found that it really just didn't feel right. For some reason (and contrast wasn't the problem on my nice LCD) it just exhausted me to read from a screen.

Now I know...and knowing is half the battle...

yea compared 2 reading a real book...that feels odd
it like downloading a ebook u rather read the real thing

@tutelary: holy shit lol I'm hoping that's sarcasm.

I haven't tried an e-reader or a pda or anything of that sort nor do I plan to. They're a bit of a niche product to me and I'd only use them at home(not school, bus ride, etc.)

I always thought that knowing how much was left was a limitation of paper books, not a feature.

(I remember a chapter about that in Godel, Escher, Bach, I think.)

I think a graphical solution for your wife's problem is super easy to do. If Sony listens, maybe in the next firmware update they'll add a little vertical bar (like a Flash loading bar of sorts) that shows how far you're into a book. No?

The book reader I've been using for my cellphone for years has a single-pixel progress bar down the side that is equally easy to ignore or notice as you prefer.

Mark Wilson, your wife is a gadget-reviewing genius!

I think that is the one thing that has always bothered me about electronic books.

Although, on the flipside, I like not having the strain on my hands of holding a paperback open for hours at a time when I'm reading my Peter David novel...

This is interesting. I'm not sold on the e-readers, but I want to be. This might explain why I absolutely hate to read large manuals or documents from a computer screen.

I also think it may be that you don't really get as comfortable sitting in front of a laptop as you do with a book propped up as you slouch on the couch. But that's not an e-reader issue, is it?

Another thing: I'm worried about it getting knocked around. How hardy are these things? Not very, I'd imagine.

I have an iRex Iliad, so I guess I am in the group of folks who really want this technology to work, as the Iliad is easily the most expensive device and takes the most initiative to acquire (and put up with). I thought exactly the same the same thing just a few days ago that the feeling of not having pages is the biggest thing missing on this device VS books. Its really weird, you don't have that subliminal feeling, its akin to riding inside a ship on the ocean with all the portholes closed. You feel a little disconnected as to your place in the book. Some people suggest visual clues, but the Iliad has exactly this sort of cue at the bottom of the screen. It may help, but the feeling is still there. Its like your looking at a single page all the time and context is lost. Web browsing does not feel like reading a book and neither do this. This is especially bad because you can not easily flip between pages quickly due to the slow refresh of the screen. I would venture that a realistic page flipping effect (as neat as the scrolling stuff on an iphone) would alleviate some of the feeling and might be a step in the right direction. I never foresaw this problem, but I know exactly what your wife is talking about.

The screens are not that hardy. They are more susceptible to non warranty covered damage than say, a laptop screen. They are much easier on the eyes, but you have to be careful about laying things on the screen like books or anything with weight (just don't lay anything on the screen). I have an Iliad and it has a touchscreen, but I would not dare place say anything actually resting on the screen. Read the owners manual for the particular device for these sort of warnings. They are very expensive to fix right now (hopefully this will change in the future) so it something you have to be careful with.

This is a strange dilemma.

Over the years, as I've been deep into a book and it starts getting REALLY good, I get a little depressed when I can see there's only 20 or so pages left. I always kind of felt that not knowing how much physical space was left in the book would broaden the mystery of what could happen. It's like watching a 1-hour TV show with only 10 minutes left, you know that they are about to wrap things up.

But, I can kind of understand the concern. Either way, I'm still not convinced on the technology.

I recently purchased this for my fiancee. And we felt the same way. We also felt disoriented that you dont read on the left side of the book. After getting over that, we enjoyed it other than the font resizing not working as well as we expected for pdfs.

Pride and Prejudice was the first classic I downloaded with my reader! I definitely understand what your wife is saying about not "feeling" the satisfaction of having read so many pages. I just keep telling myself...there's no way you can fit anymore books onto your bookshelf. Now I don't have to sell any books to make more room! As an avid reader who loves the touch, thickness, and smell of books I can honestly say that if e-ink is the way of the future, the Sony Reader is a great replacement.

I had a similar experience with the first ebooks, back when Microsoft Reader was the best thing going. I knew where I was in the book, sorta, but it wasn't intuitive.

It's similar to the feeling I get when I read a digital clock - I have to convert the numbers into clock hands to picture it. It only takes an instant, but it's a conversion none the less.

Maybe if they showed a bar graph comparison of pages read to pages left it would help to fix that problem. They could be crazy misleading too if that's what it takes.

Interesting. I have the earlier model of the Sony Reader and when I get into a story, I don't notice much of anything. Sometimes, I'm so absorbed in the story that I reach up to turn the page. That's happened more often than I care to admit to.

After having read the Harry Potter books in hardback, I so don't miss the heft of a heavy book when reading on the Sony Reader. It lets me read longer, in fact, which I love.

@hakubak: ...You have to convert digital clocks to a hand clock to know what time it is? What the hell??

perhaps someday the device will be able to maintain a helium storage area and inflate internal balloons when you get further through the book!

Yes, tactile feedback for how far you've got to go is probably the only thing I miss about paper books, and took the longest for me to get over. I started reading ebooks on a palm many, many years ago, and eReader (back then PeanutPress Reader, yikes) has a pretty elegant solution, with just a basic progress bar. The Sony lacks this (the Cybook does not, btw) but eventually I've gotten used to translating pages to thickness in my head. It's not quite the same, though.
The Sony does succeed at being book-like, though. A couple weeks back I found myself brushing my finger against the upper right corner of the device trying to turn the page. D'oh!
@polyex: I don't know what happened, but something made a tiny puncture in the screen on my Sony. Unlike a touchscreen device, though, the tiny little spot (which is towards the bottom and doesn't impede reading) doesn't make the device unusable, like it would if it was a touchscreen or a traditional LCD.

I miss books that don't need electricity.

She's just not used to it yet.

That being said, unless somebody is willing to give me an e-reader I'll stick to my paper books.

@Shrike: Bullshit, a story is pretty simple over all, and even without knowing how many pages or left its pretty simple to tell when the story is about to come to a close just by reading.

hey mark, are you the same person who also writes in kotaku?

you know if they want to pull more people in... it would be perfect if they made this in color, with the additions of PDF's so that we can read magazines also, as well as books.

My aunt once said the exact same thing

@northwood: I'm pretty sure the e-reader supports PDFs. It's the Kindle that doesn't.

Any nerds out there know how well an e-reader deals with technical PDFs (medical journals, etc.)?

how to save >300 dollars:

buy a handheld pc and put your books on it.

@amiash: Yes he is, but it's a secret, so keep it quiet.

It seems like an easy-to-solve sofware problem. A little status bar could express how many pages remain to be read or it could simple display the info as a percentage. I think I'd be satisfied with that.

LOL. No kindle because it's ugly. Unfortunately the Sony unit HAS NO CONTENT. I read to read, not admire the paper.

But hey, if it does PDF then you can leech your books.

Why ebooks rule: you can fit more books in them. They rule for travel or being trapped at the inlaws. Kindles wireless dowload means even at your luddite inlaws you can still get books.

Plus, my shelves are full and I'm out of room.

It's dumb to compare the new media to old. It obviously won't be the same. It needs a paradigm shift on several levels...give it to a kid who has never had to deal with a real book and see what he likes/dislikes. Within a generation, this will be the way to read, and only "oldies" will have issues like this. It's like missing the clutch pedal in the new pedal-shifting cars, or the keyboard when you get an iphone. You have to start thinking about the same actions in a new way and overcome your old hangups.

BTW, is there an autoscroll feature that you can calibrate to always speed up by 5% every few minutes so that it forces you to read faster and improve your overall reading speed? Imagine whizzing through long books!

@bramachari: Quite a few ebook reader applications (particularly for PDAs) have an optional progress bar for this very reason. I find that I keep it turned off for the most part, but it's occasionally very handy when you are into a real page-turner, don't want to put the book down until it's finished, but you have to get to work or something. It provudes a good graphical representation of how much is left to go. Don't know why the various ebook reader H/W doesn't support that. It's an old, standard feature in a pretty mature (S/W, anyway) space. Could it be a buried configuration option?

My wife also complained when I got rid of our sundial and got a clock for the wall. She missed going outside to find out what time it was. She said "How can you tell what time it is unless you see the sun and the position of it in relation to mother earth"
Technology is a bitch.

Tactile Feedback - what's next??

People will find all sorts of reasons to hate on ebook devices and it's no secret that Gizmodo leads the pack.

"it's not the sort of issue E Ink will ever be able to address," Really?!? Because there are all sorts of ways this is addressed on various devices - including a status bar that visually shows how much of the book is left - not much differently than looking at the edge of the book and judging the number of pages.

And when you look at the benefits - adjustable fonts, wireless delivery of content (kindle), carrying multiple texts at once, search, web aps (kindle), these all outweigh the "tactile feedback" or any other user complaints I've heard.

She just GOT the device for crying out loud?? Give her and the technology a chance! Your obvious bias against the Kindle and ebooks in general has worn thin.

@tutelary: If you are old enough that the clock face is all you learned and used for 30 years or more, I can believe it. I learned the clock face when I was growing up, but digital clocks came around when I was in my teens and so I grew used to both. I have no trouble using either form to tell the time.

I can't wait to get my reader. Unfortunately, by the time my wife got around to buying it for Christmas, everyone in a three state area was sold out, (including Sony). It's killing me to wait until the middle/end of January to get my hands on this thing.

That being said, I've been reading on one device or another for several years now. I too missed the tactile pleasantries associated with dead-tree editions, but I got over it rather quickly. The convenience far outweighed the lack of "paper smell".

Here's my biggest complaint in regard to this technology; I don't usually buy new books. I like to hunt through used book stores, and check out library sales. I get books for pennies on the dollar this way, and I feel the books have more character than a new one. I'll never be able to go into a store and find a used eBook File section. So I'd be stuck paying full prices for everything. Also, I like finding old editions of books. There's something about buying a book that's been on this earth for fifty years. There's a satisfaction there that no technology could ever simulate. Keep in mind, this is coming from someone who is more obsessed with new technologies than your average bear. But some things are just better left untouched, I think. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to go and gag on my own sentimentality. ;}

Since you apparently have not used the Sony Reader 505, perhaps your wife should have written the review.

Alternatively, you might have asked her to fact check it for you.

FYI - the SONY Reader displays the current page number and the total number.

It is the Amazon Kindle, which does not.

What exactly was the point of your review?

People keep suggesting that a simple progress-bar or page count on the display would solve this problem, but I think they're missing the point: this is a tactile perception issue. When you're reading a book, you are generally holding it in your hands. You can feel, at any time, how far through the book you have gone, without having to look at a number or bar and interrupt your thoughts, trying to interpret what it means. When you start a book the pages on the left (assuming we're reading in English, anyway) are pretty thin, and the heft of the book is on the right. The adventure is beginning but it's awkward to hold. Progress a while, get into the meat of the book, and you're balanced. Head towards the end and you're asymmetrical and awkward again. This is part of the book-reading experience, drawing on more than just the sense of sight. Not everything can be solved with more visualization.

I can't believe the hype for e-readers. Contrast ratio? Progress bar? DRM? Why are these even issues? Paper backs are CHEAP!!! ...even cheaper when purchased at a used book store (or, heaven forbid, the library). I don't see the market for these items. Why would I invest ~$400 dollars in an e-reader that is still trying to MIMIC my ~$5 dollar paperback? Paper backs belong scattered in the trunk of my car, always ready to be pulled out for when I go to the beach for a little relaxation. A little sea water, sand, swimming lessons when I'm particularly upset with the plot, ...who cares!!! E-readers remind me of the urban legand of the million dollar ballpoint pen that NASA developed compared to the 2 cent pencil the russians sent into space.

@newgalactic: Here's another perspective, from a real reader: Don't thing electronic READER so much as electronic READING. I use my WinMob phone primarily as an E-Book reader. Much more than as a phone (I'm a guy, don't do the phone thing if I can avoid it). I could just as easily use any other of my computing devices, that I have already purchased for other purposes.

There is a whole universe of content that is free electronically (and legally -- and no DRM) that you would have had to pay for in a dead tree version. Places like Baen, Infinity, the Gutenberg Project, works released under Creative Commons, and on and on.

You have paperbacks scattered in the trunk of your car? I have ~ 100 novels and short stories just on my phone that I haven't read yet. I have a couple hundred on there that I HAVE already read, should I choose to revisit, which I often do with the better ones. That gives me choice, depending on my mood, time available, etc.

I've now been reading e-books on a succession of PDAs and PCs and other for more than 10 years. Some paid, most free. It DOES take some getting used to, but once you are used to it, it will remain a part of your reading arsenal. Not the whole arsenal -- I still read a lot of physical books -- but an appreciated part.

No urban legend, and no big new thing....

@canadianco: Not a tactile perception issue. It's a question of learning to use and appreciate a whole new medium, with it's own flaws and advantages. The physical book is one kind of reading experience, electronically is something else. I can read in the dark, for example, and you can't. Big improvement over the flashlight under the covers :-)

And the words remain the same....

@glass: One answer to people who prefer old books: Project Gutenberg.

Cheers

If it's really a problem for a significant group of customers. I imagine they could use some sort of mechanical cleverness to arbitrarily add thickness to the e-reader and then diminish it as you page forward.

I think your wife is crazy though.

Pretty smart lady, Mark's wife. Pretty complex issue.

There's an architecture to reading... visual grammar, kinesthetics, page position, lighting and more. Not knowing how many pages are left or casually thumbing page-to-page are just a couple dynamics an ereader changes.

Result is a different process; just the way moving from markers to a glowing screen changed design. Which is "better?" Depends on what and who.

I absolutely adore my PRS-505. It does exactly what it needs to do very, very well. Surprisingly, I use it mostly for PDF's, which, as you can read on any number of forms, pose a bit of a challenge for the reader.

However, even with textbooks containing images (in my case, it's a lot of sample documents), and the fact that one needs to read it in landscape to more easily see the text, it's been a godsend.

I don't have to stare at my computer screen, I don't have to waste paper to print stuff out, and I can carry all of law school in my pocket.

Things I love:

-The screen. Period.
-The fact that once you're in the thick of reading the device really hits its stride, and the overall quality of the physical design becomes apparent (that is to say, it's unnoticeable).
-If you have Acrobat Pro and can format your PDF's ahead of time, they can be awesome.
-The free classics give me little if any reason to purchase new books anytime soon.
-The weight and size.
-The stock "leather" cover, which to me is far better than the $40 accessory ones.
-Talking about it with others.

Things I hate:
-The response time.
-The lack of an indicator telling you its thinking. This plays into the response time issue because sometimes, especially when its rendering a complex PDF, you have no idea whether you actually pushed the button enough.
-Need more tactile feedback on the buttons (see above).
-When reading PDF's, the battery drains MUCH more quickly than e-books. This probably has to do with the vastly increased processor load.
-Everything above is actually fine in the grand scheme because once you start reading, which is what you do 90% the time, it doesn't matter. However, the one thing I really, really hate is the software package, which is truly, utterly half-assed. It's slow and cumbersome, and the store is like being in a public school library (barren, in other words). I could go on for a long time about this.
-No Mac support. It mounts perfectly fine and you have access to the folders (this is how I add PDF's without using Windows), which is great, but if I can do that, why not let me download books to my computer independent of the software and add them the same way? In fact, given the aforementioned, I would PREFER to do it this way! HUGE, HUGE pain in the ass.

Things it could use:
-A bundled A/C adapter (bought a PSP one for $20, which works fine).
-A useful MP3 player (i.e. one that's not retarded). Doesn't matter, however, as I will literally never use it. In fact, I wish I could disable it somehow so it didn't take up menu space.
-Again, Mac support. -Again, a new store. One that makes me want to buy things (well, first it needs to have things I want to buy!), and without having to boot into Vista.
-I wish you didn't need as much direct light to read the screen.

Overall, this device really has changed the way I read. As an avid reader, I was worried I would miss the feel of a book; but overall, the experience has been relatively close. It's not quite there yet, but it will be very, very soon, and I can't wait until we no longer have to obliterate our forests to serve this form of media.
Rating (not that anyone asked for it): 6.5/10 (I should mention that the -3.5 is really do to what it COULD be, not what it is. As such, I really stand by my "adoration" of the device overall!)

@djtooshay: A progress bar isn't really a replacement for feeling the remaining pages in your hand - it's another example of how digital info is a poor replacement for analog. It's a bit like replacing a car speedometer with a digital readout - yes, it tells you the speed, but it's not the same as glancing at a needle on a dial (which is why many cars now use digital dials). Or being able to tell how much LP there is to go by looking at the tone arm position on the turntable...

That said, I think we'll be one of the last generations to think this way - despite the fact that our brains have evolved to handle analog information almost subconsciously, we're be quick to adapt to digital replacements, particularly when the pros outweigh the cons (time remaining displays in an MP3 player, for the earlier example).

I'd love to replace my shelves of paperbacks with a single electronic device that held all of them and let me find any passage within any title with just a few clicks, though that's more of a content availability issues than a technological one at the moment.

I understand his wife's reaction to the Sony Reader. There's something very familiar and comforting about a good, old-fashioned paper-and-ink book. We've been surrounded by them since infancy and we think of the medium as a portal into another reality. The act of picking up an old-school book and thumbing to the page where you left off primes you for the expected experience of being transported. Any new technology requires an emotional adjustment. I can't help but think of my grandparents resisting the demise of vinyl records. A part of me wants to embrace the Kindle and download ten books to carry with me on vacation without the bulk of traditional books. Part of me feels wistful as I scan the many rows of bookshelves in my living room and think that they may soon be obsolete.

I completely agree that reading long documents on a computer screen causes a certain disorientation which arises from not being able to 'physically' identify how far along you are. This is precisely why I'd rather print a long PDF document rather than scroll up and down acrobat reader. Physically manipulative GUI enhancements exemplified by the i-phone offer a partial alleviation to these sort of frustrations, but I think in the end it will have to be an innovative combination of software/hardware UI to solve this problem.

@hakubak:

I know exactly what you mean. As a matter of fact, I was going to comment something similar. With digital clocks you get to know the time, as in you can pronounce it "Ten forty-eight". But you don't really "feel" or "understand" the time until you picture it in analog -- the short hand between 10 and 11 and the long hand between 9 and 10. Then you understand that it's a little less than a quarter of an hour to 11, and that makes more sense to you.

And I don't think it's just a generational thing; the very first wrist watch I owned was a Casio. Stilll, as I grew up, I learned that the good ol' analog watches were so much more intuitive, and have never worn a digital watch since.

Now, sadly, I rely on my iPhone for my time-keeping :p Hopefully with the SDK, we'll see some good analog-faced clock widgets for the iPhone.

As an english major, my life revolves around books. Sad is what some might say, but alas, I know exactly what she means. It's pretty nice to not only see how much of the book is left to conjure up the ideas of what might happen next, but it's also nice to see just how much of that book has been put behind you.

And if it's something like pride and prejudice, believe me, it's nice to see that you are putting that monstrosity to bed.