I really love all the Big Bad Harv episodes, those Two-Face origin episodes where he’s flipping the coin. There’s even some small clips where he’s talking to Commissioner Gordon and he’s like, “If you catch him, I’ll put him in jail for you” and you just see his shadow, this very intentional half-shadow flipping that coin. Everyone can tell something’s wrong with Harvey but the world is crazy in Gotham.

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Any other specific episodes you’re looking to include?

Levya: I think you have to have episodes with the Joker in them. In particular, we’ll have the first episode with Harley Quinn [”Joker’s Favor”]. Here we have a situation where animation influences comics. A character that Bruce Timm and Paul Dini create then becomes this uber-hit in the comics. It’s crazy.

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In the show, she’s a mega-hit. Then she gets introduced in the comic-book adaptation of the show, and [the original printing of] that comic is hella expensive, you know? She later comes into the regular DC Universe and remains popular. There’s these strata to the ways in which she’s being introduced and that episode will allow us to look at them.

You have to talk about Mark Hamill’s Joker and Kevin Conroy’s Batman as these dual figures, because they’re going to be really important as they show up in all the subsequent iterations. In the Justice League/Justice League Unlimited series, but then into the Arkham series of video games. I think for people in their mid-30s, early 40s, these are the voices of those characters. As far as I’m concerned, Kevin Conroy is Batman. Affleck, Bale, Keaton, Kilmer, Clooney… all those guys are only pale representations of Conroy, someone who gets the gestalt so right. That’s also true for Mark Hamill’s Joker. So, we might—it’s still up in the air, but definitely Harley Quinn episodes. And I don’t know—probably Robin is my least-favorite character in that whole series. Are you a fan? A big fan of Robin?

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Yeah, I am. A while back, I wrote an essay after Batman: Arkham City about why Robin makes Batman better.

Levya: Let me be clear, though—my hate on Robin is not as the character is rendered in the comics. Or how Dick Grayson is. It’s the vocal performance of Loren Lester in the animated series, particularly before they go to the New Batman/Superman Adventures and the art style changes. Nightwing in that show is really effective. I think the vocal performance for Robin in that show, he feels kind of whiny. Except for the “Robin’s Reckoning” episodes that cover his origin. What’s funny is, in that episode, he seems to synthesize Grayson, Todd, and Drake in some ways. He kind of feels like all those characters at once. But the rest of the time, too whiny for me.

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But, talking about the character reminds me of an argument with a friend of mine: I said “The reason people love Robin is because Robin gets to be with Batman.” He’s like, “No, it’s because of the bright colors.” That’s too simple! Right? How cool—and other people have said it before, this is not my original idea—to have your father figure be Batman?! Robin’s life, despite the danger, is the sort of fantasy of all that. Robin is also a place where we can experience a kind of nostalgia, right? Or a moment of having our cake and eat it, too. You can be with Batman, but not all the baggage. But, yeah, I don’t despise the character, just that particular performance.

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To be honest, I probably should throw Mask of the Phantasm in there, too. I was way more excited to go see that than any of the live-action movies. Not until I was older and seeing Batman Begins, which has its problems. But, with an 80-year history, there’s only so much we can cover in 15 weeks.

The thing that makes Mask of the Phantasm work better than any of the live-action ones—and I also wrote a piece about this—is the romance is real. It has stakes. It’s not this perfunctory, “We’ve got to give him a girlfriend...” But no, this is before he’s even Batman. Like, the choice he has to make, “Do I actually try to pursue a sort of normal life?” Or... “Do I go be Batman?” is great and distills the commitment the character has to his mission in a very digestible way.

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Levya: Even as a child, you can recognize that. You don’t have to have a degree, or be a scholar, or read every series to recognize how those stakes are being played out and that they feel sincere. [The people involved with that were] not afraid of seeming sincere.

I see a lot of that same idea in the way Tom King is writing the relationship between Catwoman and Batman. I know there’s an economic element that DC wants to sell a bunch of comics but there’s something in the storytelling leading up to why Batman proposes. The slow burn leading up to that is great. I was just reading the most-recent issue where Joker and Catwoman are on the ground. That is fantastic panel work, fantastic storytelling. It could almost seem too slow, but the writing is too good. And the relationships have been built upon something where the stakes are real. Here’s a Batman comic where the majority of the pages, Batman is unconscious and it works really well.

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Ultimately, one of the reasons I wanted to teach this class is because I was convinced by Weldon saying Batman is not a figure of fear or revenge, but hope. Everything about his storytelling, almost everything resets, right? Like, no matter what the trauma, the mission can help us reset. He essentially says “never again” in that childlike oath that he makes to himself. It’s an optimistic oath. It’s a child’s oath, for sure. It’s free of the knowing cynicism that creeps in with adulthood. But that one is important. In a time where, as a black man in America, I feel like every day I’m under assault. How useless, how Sisyphean is it to say “never again”? We just had a shooting down the road [in Annapolis] . And I’m thinking, how many times are we going to say “never again.” But the oath is important, because what is left if that goes? If it isn’t for the striving? And here’s a character that—even in the broad ways in which he can be presented—embodies that. You know? It is essentially Camus. Camus’ idea is “You have to imagine Sisyphus happy.” That’s the way Batman works.

You talked about reading materials. Are you going to pull out any single issues aside from the collected editions?

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Levya: There’s going to be an assignment where I ask them to purchase a single issue of any Batman comic. They can go in the dollar bin, they can go into the new issues, and I’m going to let the students pick a single issue to critique what kinds of Batman are they seeing. What changes are happening as we discuss his movement through history. We’ll talk about some significant moments, obviously. We’ve got to talk about Batman’s back being broken and those kinds of things. We’ll talk a little about how soon Robin gets introduced. I think it’s not always common knowledge that Batman’s only around for a year, and then he’s got a son, essentially. Or a live-in boyfriend, depending on how you’re interpreting it. I’m going to allow them to make choices about what kind of single issues they want to engage with. And some of that is just to also see how the iconography changes and how it’s drawn differently.

Are you hoping to get any creators in? I know Tom King lives in the area...

Levya: In the past, when I’ve taught as part of a separate class on the graphic novel White Out by Greg Rucka—it’s a great way of talking about noir, because it’s in Antarctica where all the iconography is flipped—I asked Greg Rucka if he would respond to students’ questions, and two years in a row, he’s done it. If I do some reaching out, it’ll be mostly like that. We have, at our fingertips, a way of making social media an engine of academic study, in that we can talk to authors. Like, we don’t have to wonder about creator intention—and we can discuss the problems with intention separately—but we can ask Tom King about some of the things in his run. I think the potential of that is great, because having Batman written by someone who’s a recent veteran is interesting.

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Do you have any creator’s takes on the Batman characters that you hate?

Levya: That I hate? It’s all complicated. The first thing that comes to mind is how you can have a single creator, or portions of it, you just adore, and the same creator writing the same character in a different series is terrible. This is a bit of an obvious one, but Frank Miller’s The Dark Knight Returns is wonderful. I love it. I love its commentary on television, Reaganism, the early ‘80s. But Miller’s All-Star Batman and Robin is a farce. It’s the whole “The Goddamn Batman” business. That one’s easy to lampoon, and in some ways Frank Miller is kind of an easy target for that. You know, there’s a lot that I love from the Denny O’Neil and Neal Adams run. I was born in ‘82 and I think it’s really important to read what creators were doing before you existed. Sometimes, they’re hit-or-miss, too, right? So I don’t think there’s a particular artist or writer or combination of the two that is, in a unified way, detested by me.

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But, there are curious moments that might end up being worthy of discussion. As far as the different presentations of Batman, I’m here for all of it. Snyder and the New 52 reboot, as a finite run, is so well done. I can’t say enough about it, from the covers to the introduction of the Court of Owls and everything. Long story short, it’s about the way he deals with family, the way Snyder imagines the Bat family, and what family means in a way that I think I’m genuinely drawn to. I’m often kind of drawn to the interpretations that get at that. Some people want to argue that Batman’s a loner at heart. And I just don’t think that’s true.

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I’ve loved the recent Detective Comics run by James Tynion because I thought it was a perfect exploration of Batman as the center of this unlikely, weird, damaged, dysfunctional family. And it was also a complete Tim Drake love fest, which I wasn’t mad at.

Levya: And he deserves it, right? Tim Drake was my Robin, the Robin that I knew, when Azrael took over. In Identity Crisis, there’s that great moment where they talk about Tim Drake losing his father and his father being killed and how now he’s an orphan, also… Part of the reason I love Tim Drake, too, is the way in which he was different from the other Robins. He wasn’t a natural athlete and he had to work really hard at it. But he was a detective; that was his schtick. He had this other life, too, that he was sort of returning to. And I think that made for some complications. He’s almost an Odysseus-type figure. In that he’s going for a time on all these adventures, these islands with all these different villains, but he’s returning home. Then it becomes about what you leave behind and how you can’t come back whole, you know? It’s impossible.

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Gail Simone’s run on Batgirl is also just really excellent. I don’t know. Maybe I don’t ride for Ace, the Bat-Hound too much… he might be among the things I have to mention with regard to the glut of Bat-Family characters.

Or Harold, the hunchback who was a tech savant from the 1990s comics...

Levya: There’s just so much material to explore. And the cast of characters is large, so it can get away from you really fast.

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Which can be a challenge when you’re teaching a roomful of students. Some are going to know this stuff...

Levya: When I was discussing what to do about the Library of Congress, one of the reference librarians said, “We’ve all had these conversations where the comic book shop turns into a scene from High Fidelity. How do you tell the difference between that kind of discourse and more serious, insightful and critical discourse?” I thought about it for a second and told her, for me, it has to be the way they insist or not insist on one version of Batman. That’s the telling thing about whether or not you’re entering into a fandom discourse, right? Like, either you’re trying to protect your fiefdom or you’re interested in critical examination. I want to encourage students who come in with a vast amount of background knowledge, but in some ways, that can be the enemy. That can lead you down the pathway to say that Batman is X. One thing. And if we’re not careful, we adopt some of the reductive discourse of white supremacy. Of taking something and kind of pulling it all down in one thing.

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One monolithic understanding or dogma...

Levya: One dogma that I would say comes down to a sort of wish fulfillment. Weldon has a hilarious opening when he’s talking about the relatability of Batman and fans saying, “Anybody could be Batman.” He’s like, “No, they can’t. How many of you were billionaires? You think you can do a few crunches and then you’ll be flipping off a rooftop.” No! If Batman was a real person, it’d be like W.E.B DuBois’ Talented Tenth, right? There are very few people who have the confluence of things needed to become Batman. That’s not why he’s relatable.

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He’s relatable because of this oath that he makes. We relate to the childlike desire for justice. I want to talk to students and say, “Hey, here is a good pop culture icon where we can practice critical thinking in discourse.” That doesn’t have to adopt the dense language of postmodernism or other kinds of things. Not trying to pooh-pooh those things, they’re great and they give us those lenses with which to look. But here’s something that we can absorb in multiple ways, still grasp that critical thinking we can take out into the world, and try to see people and situations with nuance. If there’s one thing that I think Batman allows us to do, it’s practice nuance. Which is why I think so many different writers and artists can put a different take on him. There’s something about his DNA that does that.

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How do you want this course to impact your students’ understanding of comics, Batman, or critique?

Levya: I want them to be able to have an opportunity to understand themselves better, because Batman can be read as a mirror for the self, the subconscious, the way our minds work. I want them to understand society and history a little bit better, by examining the way in which Batman reflects the changes in our anxieties and our socio-political stances. I mentioned this in another interview, but Batman begins his whole mission dropping people off of rooftops and using guns. Then, there’s a kind of non-lethal thing that comes into the comics. He abandons those things in his presentation. Is there a way in which that parallels some of the discussion we’re having about gun control, gun violence, and police brutality in our country?

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So, I want them to understand the world better and, recognize that pop culture artifacts can be just as viable ways of understanding the world as other sorts of artifacts. And I want them to have fun. The whole spectrum of Batman runs from serious to light-hearted. There’s a portion of Batman that just allows us to think about the nature of joy, because you have this vampire-dressed figure who’s a whole hell of a lot of fun.